Console makers do. And anyway loss leader was just to get a short term, I said it could be sold at no / low profit which is not real "loss leader" anymore. Fanatec already did that in the past. Better having a real discussion about the suggestion itself than losing time on wording.
Sorry John I didn't make my point very clear. What I was trying to get across was that it's a bad idea. It's not done often and when it is done its for a very short promotion. Yes consoles do lose money for a time period but that's not a apples to apples comparison. Console makers have many more revenue streams to make that money back, Fanatec being one of them. They make a big profits on physical games and huge profits on downloaded games. Then all the licensing agreements for peripherals and the money made off of Netflix and other apps makes all that money and then some back in a hurry. Thomas doesn't have any of these options. It's just not feasible. And I'm not a fanboy who thinks Fanatec can do know wrong. Just a guy who knows a bit about business. I'd love for him to make little to no profit also but then Fanatec wouldn't be around for long. That's just a fact. I hope I'm more clear in voicing my opinion. And I do respect your opinion but I disagree with it.
Nothing against you Chris but I will answer I don't need to convince a customer my suggestion is feasible, that's Thomas I need to convince. But still I will answer you (but just don't want it to make the discussion derail from the main subject which is trying to discuss it with Thomas and try to convince him):
You base your analysis on a wrong postulate by summing up my suggestion to the fact I would have asked Fanatec to sell their products with little to no profit which is obviously false. My suggest is to sell ONE product at no/little profit (kit, made of parts that already exist from Fanatec manufacturing process) with the goal to make your profit elsewhere. When you have a potential customer that finally decide to buy a competitor's product because he cannot afford yours due to a price increase (or even without this price increase, I could have made my suggestion before that), your profit is ZERO. NOTHING, NADA.
So when you offer a kit that allow to build your own rim thus lowering the entry cost of a clubsport set (which is made of at least one rim and one csw) you gain those customers for whom you have made your price enter in their affordable zone. Yes you have not made profit from selling them the kit but you have made profit with the csw you have sold to them, and when you gained a customer by having the opportunity to show him the quality of your product you also have a fair chance to sell him other products, even if it was making it out of his wallet range at the beginning.
So no my suggestion will not make Fanatec lose profits, it will make them increase their profits. The cost to make it happen is low as the items already exist, and the risk is low as you can stop the offer at any moment if you realize it derails beyond the scope of the initial purpose it was made for (= gaining customers rather than lowering sales of your own plug&play rims/hub).
So the only reasons I could see to not doing it would be to already have enough customers to match the critical mass your business plan requires and don't want to grow more because your are happy with that, or proving the idea isn't technically doable, or that it would no interest enough customers.
About the technical feasibility, I have not disassembled my rims completely to examine the QR precisely but I think it has very good chance to be ok. About the customer demand, make a poll Thomas and we'll have an idea. And about the will to grab or not more customers only Thomas can answer.
Now has I said I don't expect that many customers to make such a DIY effort, so that should already significantly limit the demand and the vampirizing of the existing rims/hub sales. Also Fanatec would keep control of the kit production flow: you can start with a limited production batch to see how it goes, you can decide to sell it only as a cswv2 option (kit can only be bought along with buying a csw v2), and then it is up to you to decide if you open it to a wider audience like for example those who have bought a csw v1 or v2 and limit to 1 kit per customer.
Yes, you don't make money from that last one (selling to existing csw owners), and may even lose some profit if the customer had the plan to buy you a rim or hub, but in that last case we are discussing something else, we are discussing about buying image points. When you show a customer that when he buy Fanatec products it is not just give your money, take your product and goodbye, but that you can reward them for their confidence by giving them the opportunity to make a DIY rim at reduced price (but at the cost of some manufacturing effort) for their wheelbase, then you have better chance he will recommend your products rather than moaning at every unpleasant news. Things like offering the GT3RS v2 upgrade kit at no profit are without doubt made me spend a lot of time writing positive comments about Fanatec on forums and defend them, and I bet it has made Fanatec own much more profit than what they would have done by selling me the GT3RSv2 kit doing a 100% profit margin on it
But yes, this only makes sense if Thomas want to gain customers. If he just want to stay within a required critical mass and will not hesitate to trade some customers for others, or leave customers despite they could have proved their loyalty to the trademark (and people behind it), then I could only regret a company initially hosted by lot of passion has drifted to just a pure business where the only thing that matter is making money, especially since both are not incompatible (but yes, taking care only of making money certainly makes life easier as long as you can live with what it implies).
Nothing against you Chris but I will answer I don't need to convince a customer my suggestion is feasible, that's Thomas I need to convince. But still I will answer you (but just don't want it to make the discussion derail from the main subject which is trying to discuss it with Thomas and try to convince him):
You base your analysis on a wrong postulate by summing up my suggestion to the fact I would have asked Fanatec to sell their products with little to no profit which is obviously false. My suggest is to sell ONE product at no/little profit (kit, made of parts that already exist from Fanatec manufacturing process) with the goal to make your profit elsewhere. When you have a potential customer that finally decide to buy a competitor's product because he cannot afford yours due to a price increase (or even without this price increase, I could have made my suggestion before that), your profit is ZERO. NOTHING, NADA.
So when you offer a kit that allow to build your own rim thus lowering the entry cost of a clubsport set (which is made of at least one rim and one csw) you gain those customers for whom you have made your price enter in their affordable zone. Yes you have not made profit from selling them the kit but you have made profit with the csw you have sold to them, and when you gained a customer by having the opportunity to show him the quality of your product you also have a fair chance to sell him other products, even if it was making it out of his wallet range at the beginning.
So no my suggestion will not make Fanatec lose profits, it will make them increase their profits. The cost to make it happen is low as the items already exist, and the risk is low as you can stop the offer at any moment if you realize it derails beyond the scope of the initial purpose it was made for (= gaining customers rather than lowering sales of your own plug&play rims/hub).
So the only reasons I could see to not doing it would be to already have enough customers to match the critical mass your business plan requires and don't want to grow more because your are happy with that, or proving the idea isn't technically doable, or that it would no interest enough customers.
About the technical feasibility, I have not disassembled my rims completely to examine the QR precisely but I think it has very good chance to be ok. About the customer demand, make a poll Thomas and we'll have an idea. And about the will to grab or not more customers only Thomas can answer.
Now has I said I don't expect that many customers to make such a DIY effort, so that should already significantly limit the demand and the vampirizing of the existing rims/hub sales. Also Fanatec would keep control of the kit production flow: you can start with a limited production batch to see how it goes, you can decide to sell it only as a cswv2 option (kit can only be bought along with buying a csw v2), and then it is up to you to decide if you open it to a wider audience like for example those who have bought a csw v1 or v2 and limit to 1 kit per customer.
Yes, you don't make money from that last one (selling to existing csw owners), and may even lose some profit if the customer had the plan to buy you a rim or hub, but in that last case we are discussing something else, we are discussing about buying image points. When you show a customer that when he buy Fanatec products it is not just give your money, take your product and goodbye, but that you can reward them for their confidence by giving them the opportunity to make a DIY rim at reduced price (but at the cost of some manufacturing effort) for their wheelbase, then you have better chance he will recommend your products rather than moaning at every unpleasant news. Things like offering the GT3RS v2 upgrade kit at no profit are without doubt made me spend a lot of time writing positive comments about Fanatec on forums and defend them, and I bet it has made Fanatec own much more profit than what they would have done by selling me the GT3RSv2 kit doing a 100% profit margin on it
But yes, this only makes sense if Thomas want to gain customers. If he just want to stay within a required critical mass and will not hesitate to trade some customers for others, or leave customers despite they could have proved their loyalty to the trademark (and people behind it), then I could only regret a company initially hosted by lot of passion has drifted to just a pure business where the only thing that matter is making money, especially since both are not incompatible (but yes, taking care only of making money certainly makes life easier as long as you can live with what it implies).
John,
You misunderstood my post. I was speaking about just one product as you are. Not the entire line. But I'm sorry we still disagree. Your business background might support your opinion. Mine does not. Sorry it just doesn't. I don't want to make this the John and Chris show so I'll end here. We will have to agree to disagree. Agree? :-bd
As long as we are discussing the feasibility with real arguments I'm open for the discussion as it won't be john & chris show but civil and valuable discussion. Now just saying "it can't work" is coming with no arguments at all.
I was just looking at this with numbers and I got this:
I assumed those profit margins: - hub 25% - csw 15% - csr elite pedals 25%
With a kit sold 100€ at no profit and considering a normal sale is made of 1 csw + 1 hub it would require 67% of the sales with a kit instead of a hub to be sales that wouldn't have existed without the kit to compensate the profit loss from selling a kit instead of a hub.
A tough target indeed, no chance to make it.
Now I think a fair assumption that a normal sale is also made of a csr elite pedals (on average. Sometimes no pedals, sometimes a csp and/or something else, etc), which would then bring the required portion of customers gained due to the kit to 46% of those sales in particular (so not 46% of the whole sales, don't be mistaken).
Also if we make the statement that at that price the kit would allow a 10% profit margin on it then the percentage drops to 38% (= on 100 sales with a kit, 38 must be sales that would not have happened without the kit option offer, the other 62 sales being customers who would have bought a hub but took a kit instead to save money).
Now let say that 10% of the sales are made of a kit instead of a hub (and I think it is a conservative figure when you think about the work required to make the kit a real csw wheel. You need to buy the missing parts (rim, buttons, lcd), drill the rim to attach the buttons, manage to attach the QR system and the pcb and solder your buttons to the pcb).
That means that for 100 sales with a kit (so also 900 sales with a hub) you have a profit loss of 5200€, and if you end with only 10% of sales with kit being gained customers (37.8% required to be at no loss / no gain) then you will have lost 3800€ profit.
So yes I agree I may have been optimistic saying it would even increase the profit rather than cutting it. But assuming this would be the reality I would ask if 3800€ profit loss per 100 kit sales is expensive for the points of positive image gained. It represents 2% of profit loss if you compare with the profit you would have made if those 1k sales (base+rim+pedals) were all made with a hub as rim.
Those are not the real figures and this is not a complete estimation neither. Even staying with those figures I used you can certainly remove from the obtained profit loss the further sales you would make from the gained customers (a portion of them will buy something else later) and also normal sales gained (sales with hub) due to the points gained in positive image.
So my question to Thomas who has the real figures, how much would you have to sell such a kit so it represents a decent profit margin for you ?
(and also how much for no profit, because I still think buying positive image is a valid strategy, and it could be done by starting selling the kit at no profit and progressively increasing its price to the point you make a decent profit out of it. As long as you state from the beginning that only the first batch will be sold at zero profit and then the price increased by x each further batch I think you still get the positive image gain, and in the end even when normal kit price is reached the customers still have a decent option to make cheaper rims, even if it is not insanely cheaper than a finished rim, and also not forgetting this is also an option to build personalized integrated rims, which you currently do not offer).
This is so not the place to discuss things like that, but I'll jump on the bandwagon for a split second.
Talking of profit in terms of 10, 20 or 30 something percent in the times we live in is simply beyond ridiculous. Fanatec/Endor are not distributors/resellers, rather a manufacturer! I wish some of you could at least begin to grasp what that means. Which kind of brings me to my real point.
I use and enjoy Fanatec products, wish nothing but best to them and hope they will for a very long time be making beautiful sim racing products.
With that in mind, I believe explaining the price hike in the way they did was a mistake and quite demeaning to at least a part of their user base. Instead of keeping it very short (as in single sentence, two at most) and not open to discussion (merely a notification), they drag themselves into something like this...
To be polite, I'll just say that in no financial calculation from manufacturer that includes profit can an increase of the production costs by a certain percentage equate to an increase of the net/gross price by the same amount (let alone simplifying it to a currency exchange rate).
Hopefully, enough people are simply either too ignorant, benevolent or plain indifferent for Endor to 'feel the downsides' of such 'rationalization'.
Fanatec have brilliant marketing decisions/background behind them. Don't mess it up with inconsistent actions - every single letter should be analyzed before publishing ('two plus two' can be presented like 'five minus one').
In case it wasn't obvious, I have absolutely no issues with a price increase, merely a very unprofessional way in which it was presented. All the best, guys!
Well Vedran, I'm believe that giving the unpleasant nature of the announcement Fanatec just thought that by being honest and up front about it people would understand and be sensible to the price increase. Obviously that was a bit naive, we are all mostly selfish by default, sensible to our own pockets and interests first and foremost. Live and learn I suppose.
I think, the amount of the 30%+ increase is the problem for most people. If it had been two 15% increases over a fiew months, then the reactions probably woud have been calmer.
For me is this a real problem, as I planned to buy the CSP V2 and a CSW base (plus UH/rim). Because they were/are both not available I waited some weeks until I'd got the money to order both together. First to save at least on shipping costs, second I don't like to give a unsecured, interest-free loan of more than 1000 Euro to anyone. (As far as I know Fanatec charges at the time of the order, not when they deliver).
And now the whole stuff is about 400 Euro more! That means for me, that I can't buy it! Now I will look for a used CSW and buy only the CSP ...
(Sorry for my bad english, it is not my first language...)
Talking of profit in terms of 10, 20 or 30 something percent in the times we live in is simply beyond ridiculous.
Fanatec/Endor are not distributors/resellers, rather a manufacturer! I wish some of you could at least begin to grasp what that means.
In case it wasn't obvious, I have absolutely no issues with a price increase
Bad luck for you the proportion of customers you would have to gain to compensate losses due to kits sold instead of hubs is not related to the profit margin but to the proportion the kit represents in the profit of an average sale.
10-20% profit margin ridiculous ? Just an example: a company I won't tell the name is selling its product 150€ (95% made of metal and requires good manufacturing quality). The chinese have cloned it 1:1 and are selling it for less than... 23€. And this includes free registered airmail shipping + some additional parts the original doesn't even have. So even if the chinese didn't have to spend on R&D I think everyone will be able to understand the company selling the original is doing a (very) comfortable profit margin...
And Fanatec manufacturers ? Wrong again. They are resellers (and distributors, if the 3rd party resellers in some country still exist) of their own products. So they combine profits made from manufacturing and selling to the final customers, which gives them a wider margin to play with to be able to set competitive prices, or resist better to some errors in their strategy, or be less efficient in what they are doing.
Do you really think a company who designs its own products, make them be built in china and then sell them directly to final consumers is doing a sub 10% profit margin ? Not to mention we are talking about relatively high end products here.
Being a pure manufacturer, the pressure would not be the same, and the profit margin neither. They would have to be more efficient as they would be specialized in manufacturing. If things went wrong the resellers (and/or distributor(s)) would also be way more likely to sue them (and they have experienced this) compared to a final customer.
Selling directly to final customers is much more forgiving: so many (like you) will accept a 30% price hike even if it is completely unjustified. All sales made in $ now make more € which will compensate (at least partially) the loss on sales paid in €. So a 30% price hike shound never have happened unless the goal was to increase profits with the console compatibilty which will significantly boost sales.
A fair price increase (just to compensate the loss from the new euro value vs dollar) would have been way smaller, and I would add "fairly spread between € and $ prices", because those $ prices would never have been possible without the € sales. So I would find completely normal that when a price increase is required the $ sales contribute to it too, regardless the origin of that price increase.
Talking of profit in terms of 10, 20 or 30 something percent in the times we live in is simply beyond ridiculous.
Fanatec/Endor are not distributors/resellers, rather a manufacturer! I wish some of you could at least begin to grasp what that means.
In case it wasn't obvious, I have absolutely no issues with a price increase
Bad luck for you the proportion of customers you would have to gain to compensate losses due to kits sold instead of hubs is not related to the profit margin but to the proportion the kit represents in the profit of an average sale.
10-20% profit margin ridiculous ? Just an example: a company I won't tell the name is selling its product 150€ (95% made of metal and requires good manufacturing quality). The chinese have cloned it 1:1 and are selling it for less than... 23€. And this includes free registered airmail shipping + some additional parts the original doesn't even have. So even if the chinese didn't have to spend on R&D I think everyone will be able to understand the company selling the original is doing a (very) comfortable profit margin...
And Fanatec manufacturers ? Wrong again. They are resellers (and distributors, if the 3rd party resellers in some country still exist) of their own products. So they combine profits made from manufacturing and selling to the final customers, which gives them a wider margin to play with to be able to set competitive prices, or resist better to some errors in their strategy, or be less efficient in what they are doing.
Do you really think a company who designs its own products, make them be built in china and then sell them directly to final consumers is doing a sub 10% profit margin ? Not to mention we are talking about relatively high end products here.
Being a pure manufacturer, the pressure would not be the same, and the profit margin neither. They would have to be more efficient as they would be specialized in manufacturing. If things went wrong the resellers (and/or distributor(s)) would also be way more likely to sue them (and they have experienced this) compared to a final customer.
Selling directly to final customers is much more forgiving: so many (like you) will accept a 30% price hike even if it is completely unjustified. All sales made in $ now make more € which will compensate (at least partially) the loss on sales paid in €. So a 30% price hike shound never have happened unless the goal was to increase profits with the console compatibilty which will significantly boost sales.
A fair price increase (just to compensate the loss from the new euro value vs dollar) would have been way smaller, and I would add "fairly spread between € and $ prices", because those $ prices would never have been possible without the € sales. So I would find completely normal that when a price increase is required the $ sales contribute to it too, regardless the origin of that price increase.
Price increase and decreases by region are common. Look at XBoxOne. They did price reductions and value bundles in Europe months before the U.S. So regardless of what you say it happens. And that's just one quick example. We here in the US were paying more and we lived with it.
Talking of profit in terms of 10, 20 or 30 something percent in the times we live in is simply beyond ridiculous.
Do you really think a company who designs its own products, make them be built in china and then sell them directly to final consumers is doing a sub 10% profit margin ? Not to mention we are talking about relatively high end products here.
John, when did I say Fanatec/Endor are making 10 or so percent profit? I actually pointed to a complete opposite. Of course they make much, much more, that was my point all along (and they sure should be).
I have read your post five times and I still can't understand what you are trying to say? The same thing as I was, but at the same time disagreeing with me? I am obviously missing something here...
To make myself clear (following numbers are figurative), I have said that I have no problem with Fanatec/Endor increasing prices of their products, merely an explanation they gave us for it. If they want to price the CSW V2 Base at let's say 3000 EUR, so be it, it's up to consumers to decide if they wish to pay that much or look elsewhere. No discussion necessary. On the other hand, if your production expenses go up, figuratively speaking, by 30 EUR per unit, please do not present the 150 EUR gross price increase as a consequence of your increased production costs, let alone simplifying it to an exchange rate (which is even more absurd, but I won't go into that subject).
That was the part I called ridiculous and a mistake in terms of good/smart business practice.
Hint: Endor are AG in Germany. AG and Germany being the key words...
***I can't stress enough that in my opinion Fanatec/Endor make beautiful products, well worth the money and we should be thankful they exist and bring us the kind of enjoyment we get from using their products. I hope they continue to grow and become much stronger, developing high end racing peripherals and equipment.***
This is a business and in long term, one should go as high with the prices as the quality of their products, demand, competition, customer service and public relations combined let them, remembering that every part is equally important and the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.
> Thomas Jackermeier "So you want the hub without the buttons? Why would you want that? It will certainly be not much cheaper to make buttons by yourself"
Just the QR system and the pcb & its electronic chip(s) (& female connector to the base if proprietary).
- no buttons (had a quick look: 10 buttons for 3€ free shipping)
- no 8-direction stick (6.5€ free shipping, or 0€ if grabbed from the old joypad lying around)
- no lcd (unless you agree to sell yours 1.5€ + free shipping^^)
- no paddles (you sell one F1 rim paddle for 20€ (+30% too now ?) + shipping, I certainly could do one myself for less, or buy yours to make my diy life a little easier)
- no rev leds (cost 0€: I have plenty. So easy to get spare ones for free from vaious out of order products)
- no "hub" (= uni-hub metal & plastic casing). This represents some material and manufacturing I don't need as I will attach all the stuff directly to the rim as you do with your own integrated rims (F1/GT/918).
This is much less "parts" than a whole uni-hub and also much less manufacturing and assembling. So how much does the pcb + QR cost you ? Less than 100€ I'd guess (?).
So sell a kit with this for 99€, doing minor to no profit but you have a very appealing solution to offer to people who wouldn't buy a base + original rims + pedals because this whole set would cost too much (esp. now with recent the price increase) but could consider buying a CSW (and other Fanatec periphericals) and the above mentionned kit to build their own homemade compatible rim(s).
- You don't hurt your main sales much as the majority don't want / cannot go such a diy route and just want a finished plug&play product (and the few finished rims sales you'd lose would certainly be well compensated by those other customers you would gain due to this affordable diy rim offer)
- You don't risk 3rd party companies using it to make compatible rims cheaper than yours (or not cheaper but different from your own offer) as you can sell the kit to your customer base only (those who have bought a csw).
- You increase your Clubsport product line value by offering the ability to make very affordable fully personnalized integrated rims. People love personnalized items, and it has even more value when it becomes unique. Also I am not the only one not really convinced by the uni-hub solution (sorry) and such a kit would introduce the possibility to create integrated rims some (like me and others) may prefer to the uni-hub (even more if it means being significantly cheaper ).
I personally would not buy your uni-hub for 2 reasons:
- this is not what I'm looking for. I want (lightweight) integrated rims with buttons, paddles etc hard mounted on them like your own integrated rims (F1/GT/918)
- I found the uni-hub price too high before the price increase, so even more now (and anyway I'm not convinced by the hub idea, so not interested by it anyway unless it was REALLY cheaper than it is and even was before the price increase)
But a diy kit like I'm suggesting here to you, yes ! And I'm sure other people would too. It requires some diy skills but nothing crazy, and I can really make the "best rim for me". Chose the buttons, how many I need, the placement I find being the best, decide to use revleds or not if I don't care, and same for the lcd (I'd personnaly use one as I like your lcd menu feature).
And most important I can build the integrated rim I want and at an attractive cost on top of that. I have been asking to you for long for a small diameter simple round integrated rim but I could wait for this forever as it seems you consider the demand isn't high enough for considering making such a rim. I could also do it with your uni-hub but as said I don't like the idea of non-integrated rims and it would cost much more than what I'm willing to invest (and my kit suggestion was answering your announcement of more affordable rims/wheels isn't it ? )
So what do you think about it ? Look at how many sim hobbyists are doing diy stuff like sim cockpits (and many other periphericals too). A diy integrated rim doesn't sound insane in comparison, and I'm sure you can sell such a kit way cheaper than what you sell the uni-hub, esp. if you accept the idea to sell it at no/almost no profit to make it your entry level csw rim line / "loss leader".
@Jason: don't speak about something I haven't even said. I'm talking about the PC electronics as I know Thomas couldn't sell the console security chip (lol, seriously...). If you are after console rims and/or couldn't hammer a nail in a wall then this is not for you.
John, if you can't even afford the plain PC Hub and can only afford a bag of parts then Fanatec is not the company for you.
> Vedran Broz
> I actually pointed to a complete opposite. Of course they make much, much more, that was my point all along (and they sure should be).
I have read your post five times and I still can't understand what you are trying to say? The same thing as I was, but at the same time disagreeing with me? I am obviously missing something here...
Yes sorry I obviously misunderstood your post. Your wording made me think you were thinking the profit margin could only be lower than the figures I used, which then biased my reading of the rest of your post, reading again there the opposite of what you wanted to say.
I agree with you, a company can price their product whatever they want and it is up to the customer to decide if he is willing to pay or not. And I also agree Fanatec make relatively good products (but mistakes have been made that coud and should have been avoided).
Now I can't say the csw v2 with the new euro price (as most other products) still have good quality/price balance. It is too expensive for what it is and I cannot recommand it anymore with the current new euro prices.
And I'm not the only one, speaking for my only country I have seen the reactions from customers / potential customers to that price increase. A thread talking about ffb wheels has been renamed "Fanatec now more expensive than uranium", and on various forums people shared their opinion those new prices are crazy and people who were about to or hesitating to buy Fanatec stuff definetely droped those plans and opted for competitors products instead. Many also shared their opinion the price hike happening right before the console compatibility announcement is not a random coincidence at all, which adds even more to the frustration and the negative image they now have from Fanatec after this "strategic move".
This is why I'm suggesting Thomas here to reconsider this decision (but I don't think he will change his mind after I have seen how hard he tried to defend his point of view here and on other places, regardless the well valid arguments some people opposed him).
So if rethinking the price hike can't / won't happen, maybe the kit suggestion can at lest make its way. That's a compromise offering a chance to reduce the cost of the clubsport entry ticket for those who can and agree to do some work with their own hands. I have faith it is a valid option, being commercially (profit), feasibility (fanatec/customer), or in term of marketting (positive impact on image, limiting the damages made from the price hike decision).
I don't give it much chance to happen though after reading Thomas not considering the suggestion seriously but I will still defend it seriously. I think Thomas is hard to convince (which is normal considering this is his job) but he already proved in the past he is not completely hermetic to user suggestions (even if he has been more open in the past, imho).
> Jason Shaffer
> >
John, if you can't even afford the plain PC Hub and can only afford a bag of parts then Fanatec is not the company for you.
I bet I have been a Fanatec customer for longer than you, own and have owned more of their gear than you have, and have more actively participated in the company's activity that you ever have. So please keep such stupid comment for the console thread if you want, esp if you need to pollute with an insane quote like you did just to post such a silly answer.
I'm trying to have a productive discussion here so I couldn't care less such a useless comment like you made here. Believe me if I had accepted the moderator role I was proposed a few years ago I would have toned you down after reading many of your posts in the console thread. There is a reason several users have shared their opinion you were so "full of yourself". Your trolling is not welcome and I'm pleased I don't care about console and thus don't have to suffer too much your posts in that other thread, so just don't start polluting here too...
I just want to point out that the Prices for Australia and other places Have been Much Much Higher for along Time!!! The Australian people Didnt complain... They Made the Choice To Buy or Not to Buy... Very Simple.... The Prices Vary accirding to the Economic condition of that Region. Complaining about it will Not Help.
> Thomas Jackermeier "So you want the hub without the buttons? Why would you want that? It will certainly be not much cheaper to make buttons by yourself"
Just the QR system and the pcb & its electronic chip(s) (& female connector to the base if proprietary).
- no buttons (had a quick look: 10 buttons for 3€ free shipping)
- no 8-direction stick (6.5€ free shipping, or 0€ if grabbed from the old joypad lying around)
- no lcd (unless you agree to sell yours 1.5€ + free shipping^^)
- no paddles (you sell one F1 rim paddle for 20€ (+30% too now ?) + shipping, I certainly could do one myself for less, or buy yours to make my diy life a little easier)
- no rev leds (cost 0€: I have plenty. So easy to get spare ones for free from vaious out of order products)
- no "hub" (= uni-hub metal & plastic casing). This represents some material and manufacturing I don't need as I will attach all the stuff directly to the rim as you do with your own integrated rims (F1/GT/918).
This is much less "parts" than a whole uni-hub and also much less manufacturing and assembling. So how much does the pcb + QR cost you ? Less than 100€ I'd guess (?).
So sell a kit with this for 99€, doing minor to no profit but you have a very appealing solution to offer to people who wouldn't buy a base + original rims + pedals because this whole set would cost too much (esp. now with recent the price increase) but could consider buying a CSW (and other Fanatec periphericals) and the above mentionned kit to build their own homemade compatible rim(s).
- You don't hurt your main sales much as the majority don't want / cannot go such a diy route and just want a finished plug&play product (and the few finished rims sales you'd lose would certainly be well compensated by those other customers you would gain due to this affordable diy rim offer)
- You don't risk 3rd party companies using it to make compatible rims cheaper than yours (or not cheaper but different from your own offer) as you can sell the kit to your customer base only (those who have bought a csw).
- You increase your Clubsport product line value by offering the ability to make very affordable fully personnalized integrated rims. People love personnalized items, and it has even more value when it becomes unique. Also I am not the only one not really convinced by the uni-hub solution (sorry) and such a kit would introduce the possibility to create integrated rims some (like me and others) may prefer to the uni-hub (even more if it means being significantly cheaper ).
I personally would not buy your uni-hub for 2 reasons:
- this is not what I'm looking for. I want (lightweight) integrated rims with buttons, paddles etc hard mounted on them like your own integrated rims (F1/GT/918)
- I found the uni-hub price too high before the price increase, so even more now (and anyway I'm not convinced by the hub idea, so not interested by it anyway unless it was REALLY cheaper than it is and even was before the price increase)
But a diy kit like I'm suggesting here to you, yes ! And I'm sure other people would too. It requires some diy skills but nothing crazy, and I can really make the "best rim for me". Chose the buttons, how many I need, the placement I find being the best, decide to use revleds or not if I don't care, and same for the lcd (I'd personnaly use one as I like your lcd menu feature).
And most important I can build the integrated rim I want and at an attractive cost on top of that. I have been asking to you for long for a small diameter simple round integrated rim but I could wait for this forever as it seems you consider the demand isn't high enough for considering making such a rim. I could also do it with your uni-hub but as said I don't like the idea of non-integrated rims and it would cost much more than what I'm willing to invest (and my kit suggestion was answering your announcement of more affordable rims/wheels isn't it ? )
So what do you think about it ? Look at how many sim hobbyists are doing diy stuff like sim cockpits (and many other periphericals too). A diy integrated rim doesn't sound insane in comparison, and I'm sure you can sell such a kit way cheaper than what you sell the uni-hub, esp. if you accept the idea to sell it at no/almost no profit to make it your entry level csw rim line / "loss leader".
@Jason: don't speak about something I haven't even said. I'm talking about the PC electronics as I know Thomas couldn't sell the console security chip (lol, seriously...). If you are after console rims and/or couldn't hammer a nail in a wall then this is not for you.
John, if you can't even afford the plain PC Hub and can only afford a bag of parts then Fanatec is not the company for you.
> Jason Shaffer > > John, if you can't even afford the plain PC Hub and can only afford a bag of parts then Fanatec is not the company for you.
I bet I have been a Fanatec customer for longer than you, own and have owned more of their gear than you have, and have more actively participated in the company's activity that you ever have. So please keep such stupid comment for the console thread if you want, esp if you need to pollute with an insane quote like you did just to post such a silly answer.
I'm trying to have a productive discussion here so I couldn't care less such a useless comment like you made here. Believe me if I had accepted the moderator role I was proposed a few years ago I would have toned you down after reading many of your posts in the console thread. There is a reason several users have shared their opinion you were so "full of yourself". Your trolling is not welcome and I'm pleased I don't care about console and thus don't have to suffer too much your posts in that other thread, so just don't start polluting here too...
I'll take that bet, John. My first Fanatec wheel was a Speedster 3 Forceshock. My V2 is my 4th Fanatec wheel alone and what does this have to do with you being unable to afford a Hub? And to show who the stupid one is, I have a PC, jerk. So why should I be in a console thread?
Maybe ask your parents for a raise in your allowance or collect pop bottles or something. I'm pleased that nobody cares about your stupid poor man's request. I'll bet you wanted to be a hall monitor in school too. Get a job!
Lots of people give varied opinions on here that's what its for - often not agreeing. While it can get mildly heated in general the tone of most is fine. I have fed back some negative feedback about the euro price rise - I'm only reporting back the PC users opinions I've come across and across the board its pretty negative.
One person is continually offensive, condescending and quite arrogant - Jason Shaffer. His posts generally add nothing but personal insults against anyone who dare saying something negative.
Lots of people give varied opinions on here that's what its for - often not agreeing. While it can get mildly heated in general the tone of most is fine. I have fed back some negative feedback about the euro price rise - I'm only reporting back the PC users opinions I've come across and across the board its pretty negative.
One person is continually offensive, condescending and quite arrogant - Jason Shaffer. His posts generally add nothing but personal insults against anyone who dare saying something negative.
It's amusing how sensitive people get when it's pointed out they're wrong.
Lots of people give varied opinions on here that's what its for - often not agreeing. While it can get mildly heated in general the tone of most is fine. I have fed back some negative feedback about the euro price rise - I'm only reporting back the PC users opinions I've come across and across the board its pretty negative.
One person is continually offensive, condescending and quite arrogant - Jason Shaffer. His posts generally add nothing but personal insults against anyone who dare saying something negative.
It's amusing how sensitive people get when it's pointed out they're wrong.
Lots of people give varied opinions on here that's what its for - often not agreeing. While it can get mildly heated in general the tone of most is fine. I have fed back some negative feedback about the euro price rise - I'm only reporting back the PC users opinions I've come across and across the board its pretty negative.
One person is continually offensive, condescending and quite arrogant - Jason Shaffer. His posts generally add nothing but personal insults against anyone who dare saying something negative.
It's amusing how sensitive people get when it's pointed out they're wrong.
Yes Jason your never wrong.
Sad but very funny.
Did you mean "YOU'RE never wrong", Keith? Sad and funny....
Lots of people give varied opinions on here that's what its for - often not agreeing. While it can get mildly heated in general the tone of most is fine. I have fed back some negative feedback about the euro price rise - I'm only reporting back the PC users opinions I've come across and across the board its pretty negative.
One person is continually offensive, condescending and quite arrogant - Jason Shaffer. His posts generally add nothing but personal insults against anyone who dare saying something negative.
It's amusing how sensitive people get when it's pointed out they're wrong.
Yes Jason your never wrong.
Sad but very funny.
Did you mean "YOU'RE never wrong", Keith? Sad and funny....
Need I say more. You get them from time to time just best avoided and let them spout their hot air. Going out to purposefully insult people is a sad way to live your life Jason. But if that's what turns you on - just glad I don't have to have anything to do with you.
You pay two months in advance to buy clubsport v2 wheel. There are professional wheel similar to a csp v2 with rising prices (the only company that has increased tremendously prices is Fanatec) price. Can only be purchased by invitation.
There are many obstacles, and many reviews that say they have had bad experiences with a csp, and now with a t500/t300 are very happys.
I would also buy v2 by having a real wheel, but does not compensate. Is my opinion.
Lots of people give varied opinions on here that's what its for - often not agreeing. While it can get mildly heated in general the tone of most is fine. I have fed back some negative feedback about the euro price rise - I'm only reporting back the PC users opinions I've come across and across the board its pretty negative.
One person is continually offensive, condescending and quite arrogant - Jason Shaffer. His posts generally add nothing but personal insults against anyone who dare saying something negative.
It's amusing how sensitive people get when it's pointed out they're wrong.
Yes Jason your never wrong.
Sad but very funny.
Did you mean "YOU'RE never wrong", Keith? Sad and funny....
Need I say more. You get them from time to time just best avoided and let them spout their hot air. Going out to purposefully insult people is a sad way to live your life Jason. But if that's what turns you on - just glad I don't have to have anything to do with you.
I for one was about to purchase the GT3 and new pedals but decided to sleep on it only to find the price had gone up massively when I went to place my order.
Ended up buying a G27 instead, much better value for money given the current pricing.
Comments
You base your analysis on a wrong postulate by summing up my suggestion to the fact I would have asked Fanatec to sell their products with little to no profit which is obviously false. My suggest is to sell ONE product at no/little profit (kit, made of parts that already exist from Fanatec manufacturing process) with the goal to make your profit elsewhere.
When you have a potential customer that finally decide to buy a competitor's product because he cannot afford yours due to a price increase (or even without this price increase, I could have made my suggestion before that), your profit is ZERO. NOTHING, NADA.
So when you offer a kit that allow to build your own rim thus lowering the entry cost of a clubsport set (which is made of at least one rim and one csw) you gain those customers for whom you have made your price enter in their affordable zone. Yes you have not made profit from selling them the kit but you have made profit with the csw you have sold to them, and when you gained a customer by having the opportunity to show him the quality of your product you also have a fair chance to sell him other products, even if it was making it out of his wallet range at the beginning.
So no my suggestion will not make Fanatec lose profits, it will make them increase their profits. The cost to make it happen is low as the items already exist, and the risk is low as you can stop the offer at any moment if you realize it derails beyond the scope of the initial purpose it was made for (= gaining customers rather than lowering sales of your own plug&play rims/hub).
So the only reasons I could see to not doing it would be to already have enough customers to match the critical mass your business plan requires and don't want to grow more because your are happy with that, or proving the idea isn't technically doable, or that it would no interest enough customers.
About the technical feasibility, I have not disassembled my rims completely to examine the QR precisely but I think it has very good chance to be ok. About the customer demand, make a poll Thomas and we'll have an idea. And about the will to grab or not more customers only Thomas can answer.
Now has I said I don't expect that many customers to make such a DIY effort, so that should already significantly limit the demand and the vampirizing of the existing rims/hub sales. Also Fanatec would keep control of the kit production flow: you can start with a limited production batch to see how it goes, you can decide to sell it only as a cswv2 option (kit can only be bought along with buying a csw v2), and then it is up to you to decide if you open it to a wider audience like for example those who have bought a csw v1 or v2 and limit to 1 kit per customer.
Yes, you don't make money from that last one (selling to existing csw owners), and may even lose some profit if the customer had the plan to buy you a rim or hub, but in that last case we are discussing something else, we are discussing about buying image points. When you show a customer that when he buy Fanatec products it is not just give your money, take your product and goodbye, but that you can reward them for their confidence by giving them the opportunity to make a DIY rim at reduced price (but at the cost of some manufacturing effort) for their wheelbase, then you have better chance he will recommend your products rather than moaning at every unpleasant news. Things like offering the GT3RS v2 upgrade kit at no profit are without doubt made me spend a lot of time writing positive comments about Fanatec on forums and defend them, and I bet it has made Fanatec own much more profit than what they would have done by selling me the GT3RSv2 kit doing a 100% profit margin on it
But yes, this only makes sense if Thomas want to gain customers. If he just want to stay within a required critical mass and will not hesitate to trade some customers for others, or leave customers despite they could have proved their loyalty to the trademark (and people behind it), then I could only regret a company initially hosted by lot of passion has drifted to just a pure business where the only thing that matter is making money, especially since both are not incompatible (but yes, taking care only of making money certainly makes life easier as long as you can live with what it implies).
John,
You misunderstood my post. I was speaking about just one product as you are. Not the entire line. But I'm sorry we still disagree. Your business background might support your opinion. Mine does not. Sorry it just doesn't. I don't want to make this the John and Chris show so I'll end here. We will have to agree to disagree. Agree? :-bd
I was just looking at this with numbers and I got this:
I assumed those profit margins:
- hub 25%
- csw 15%
- csr elite pedals 25%
With a kit sold 100€ at no profit and considering a normal sale is made of 1 csw + 1 hub it would require 67% of the sales with a kit instead of a hub to be sales that wouldn't have existed without the kit to compensate the profit loss from selling a kit instead of a hub.
A tough target indeed, no chance to make it.
Now I think a fair assumption that a normal sale is also made of a csr elite pedals (on average. Sometimes no pedals, sometimes a csp and/or something else, etc), which would then bring the required portion of customers gained due to the kit to 46% of those sales in particular (so not 46% of the whole sales, don't be mistaken).
Also if we make the statement that at that price the kit would allow a 10% profit margin on it then the percentage drops to 38% (= on 100 sales with a kit, 38 must be sales that would not have happened without the kit option offer, the other 62 sales being customers who would have bought a hub but took a kit instead to save money).
Now let say that 10% of the sales are made of a kit instead of a hub (and I think it is a conservative figure when you think about the work required to make the kit a real csw wheel. You need to buy the missing parts (rim, buttons, lcd), drill the rim to attach the buttons, manage to attach the QR system and the pcb and solder your buttons to the pcb).
That means that for 100 sales with a kit (so also 900 sales with a hub) you have a profit loss of 5200€, and if you end with only 10% of sales with kit being gained customers (37.8% required to be at no loss / no gain) then you will have lost 3800€ profit.
So yes I agree I may have been optimistic saying it would even increase the profit rather than cutting it. But assuming this would be the reality I would ask if 3800€ profit loss per 100 kit sales is expensive for the points of positive image gained. It represents 2% of profit loss if you compare with the profit you would have made if those 1k sales (base+rim+pedals) were all made with a hub as rim.
Those are not the real figures and this is not a complete estimation neither. Even staying with those figures I used you can certainly remove from the obtained profit loss the further sales you would make from the gained customers (a portion of them will buy something else later) and also normal sales gained (sales with hub) due to the points gained in positive image.
So my question to Thomas who has the real figures, how much would you have to sell such a kit so it represents a decent profit margin for you ?
(and also how much for no profit, because I still think buying positive image is a valid strategy, and it could be done by starting selling the kit at no profit and progressively increasing its price to the point you make a decent profit out of it. As long as you state from the beginning that only the first batch will be sold at zero profit and then the price increased by x each further batch I think you still get the positive image gain, and in the end even when normal kit price is reached the customers still have a decent option to make cheaper rims, even if it is not insanely cheaper than a finished rim, and also not forgetting this is also an option to build personalized integrated rims, which you currently do not offer).
Talking of profit in terms of 10, 20 or 30 something percent in the times we live in is simply beyond ridiculous. Fanatec/Endor are not distributors/resellers, rather a manufacturer! I wish some of you could at least begin to grasp what that means. Which kind of brings me to my real point.
I use and enjoy Fanatec products, wish nothing but best to them and hope they will for a very long time be making beautiful sim racing products.
With that in mind, I believe explaining the price hike in the way they did was a mistake and quite demeaning to at least a part of their user base. Instead of keeping it very short (as in single sentence, two at most) and not open to discussion (merely a notification), they drag themselves into something like this...
To be polite, I'll just say that in no financial calculation from manufacturer that includes profit can an increase of the production costs by a certain percentage equate to an increase of the net/gross price by the same amount (let alone simplifying it to a currency exchange rate).
Hopefully, enough people are simply either too ignorant, benevolent or plain indifferent for Endor to 'feel the downsides' of such 'rationalization'.
Fanatec have brilliant marketing decisions/background behind them. Don't mess it up with inconsistent actions - every single letter should be analyzed before publishing ('two plus two' can be presented like 'five minus one').
In case it wasn't obvious, I have absolutely no issues with a price increase, merely a very unprofessional way in which it was presented. All the best, guys!
Kind regards,
Vedran
For me is this a real problem, as I planned to buy the CSP V2 and a CSW base (plus UH/rim). Because they were/are both not available I waited some weeks until I'd got the money to order both together. First to save at least on shipping costs, second I don't like to give a unsecured, interest-free loan of more than 1000 Euro to anyone. (As far as I know Fanatec charges at the time of the order, not when they deliver).
And now the whole stuff is about 400 Euro more! That means for me, that I can't buy it!
Now I will look for a used CSW and buy only the CSP ...
(Sorry for my bad english, it is not my first language...)
to compensate losses due to kits sold instead of hubs is not related to
the profit margin but to the proportion the kit represents in the
profit of an average sale.
10-20% profit margin ridiculous ? Just an example: a company I won't tell the name is selling its product 150€ (95% made of metal and requires good manufacturing quality). The chinese have cloned it 1:1 and are selling it for less than... 23€. And this includes free registered airmail shipping + some additional parts the original doesn't even have. So even if the chinese didn't have to spend on R&D I think everyone will be able to understand the company selling the original is doing a (very) comfortable profit margin...
And Fanatec manufacturers ? Wrong again. They are resellers (and distributors, if the 3rd party resellers in some country still exist) of their own products. So they combine profits made from manufacturing and selling to the final customers, which gives them a wider margin to play with to be able to set competitive prices, or resist better to some errors in their strategy, or be less efficient in what they are doing.
Do you really think a company who designs its own products, make them be built in china and then sell them directly to final consumers is doing a sub 10% profit margin ? Not to mention we are talking about relatively high end products here.
Being a pure manufacturer, the pressure would not be the same, and the profit margin neither. They would have to be more efficient as they would be specialized in manufacturing. If things went wrong the resellers (and/or distributor(s)) would also be way more likely to sue them (and they have experienced this) compared to a final customer.
Selling directly to final customers is much more forgiving: so many (like you) will accept a 30% price hike even if it is completely unjustified. All sales made in $ now make more € which will compensate (at least partially) the loss on sales paid in €. So a 30% price hike shound never have happened unless the goal was to increase profits with the console compatibilty which will significantly boost sales.
A fair price increase (just to compensate the loss from the new euro value vs dollar) would have been way smaller, and I would add "fairly spread between € and $ prices", because those $ prices would never have been possible without the € sales. So I would find completely normal that when a price increase is required the $ sales contribute to it too, regardless the origin of that price increase.
Price increase and decreases by region are common. Look at XBoxOne. They did price reductions and value bundles in Europe months before the U.S. So regardless of what you say it happens. And that's just one quick example. We here in the US were paying more and we lived with it.
This is a business and in long term, one should go as high with the prices as the quality of their products, demand, competition, customer service and public relations combined let them, remembering that every part is equally important and the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.
Yes sorry I obviously misunderstood your post. Your wording made me think you were thinking the profit margin could only be lower than the figures I used, which then biased my reading of the rest of your post, reading again there the opposite of what you wanted to say.
I agree with you, a company can price their product whatever they want and it is up to the customer to decide if he is willing to pay or not. And I also agree Fanatec make relatively good products (but mistakes have been made that coud and should have been avoided).
Now I can't say the csw v2 with the new euro price (as most other products) still have good quality/price balance. It is too expensive for what it is and I cannot recommand it anymore with the current new euro prices.
And I'm not the only one, speaking for my only country I have seen the reactions from customers / potential customers to that price increase. A thread talking about ffb wheels has been renamed "Fanatec now more expensive than uranium", and on various forums people shared their opinion those new prices are crazy and people who were about to or hesitating to buy Fanatec stuff definetely droped those plans and opted for competitors products instead. Many also shared their opinion the price hike happening right before the console compatibility announcement is not a random coincidence at all, which adds even more to the frustration and the negative image they now have from Fanatec after this "strategic move".
This is why I'm suggesting Thomas here to reconsider this decision (but I don't think he will change his mind after I have seen how hard he tried to defend his point of view here and on other places, regardless the well valid arguments some people opposed him).
So if rethinking the price hike can't / won't happen, maybe the kit suggestion can at lest make its way. That's a compromise offering a chance to reduce the cost of the clubsport entry ticket for those who can and agree to do some work with their own hands. I have faith it is a valid option, being commercially (profit), feasibility (fanatec/customer), or in term of marketting (positive impact on image, limiting the damages made from the price hike decision).
I don't give it much chance to happen though after reading Thomas not considering the suggestion seriously but I will still defend it seriously. I think Thomas is hard to convince (which is normal considering this is his job) but he already proved in the past he is not completely hermetic to user suggestions (even if he has been more open in the past, imho).
I bet I have been a Fanatec customer for longer than you, own and have owned more of their gear than you have, and have more actively participated in the company's activity that you ever have. So please keep such stupid comment for the console thread if you want, esp if you need to pollute with an insane quote like you did just to post such a silly answer.
I'm trying to have a productive discussion here so I couldn't care less such a useless comment like you made here. Believe me if I had accepted the moderator role I was proposed a few years ago I would have toned you down after reading many of your posts in the console thread. There is a reason several users have shared their opinion you were so "full of yourself". Your trolling is not welcome and I'm pleased I don't care about console and thus don't have to suffer too much your posts in that other thread, so just don't start polluting here too...
I'll take that bet, John. My first Fanatec wheel was a Speedster 3 Forceshock. My V2 is my 4th Fanatec wheel alone and what does this have to do with you being unable to afford a Hub? And to show who the stupid one is, I have a PC, jerk. So why should I be in a console thread?
Maybe ask your parents for a raise in your allowance or collect pop bottles or something. I'm pleased that nobody cares about your stupid poor man's request. I'll bet you wanted to be a hall monitor in school too. Get a job!
Lots of people give varied opinions on here that's what its for - often not agreeing. While it can get mildly heated in general the tone of most is fine. I have fed back some negative feedback about the euro price rise - I'm only reporting back the PC users opinions I've come across and across the board its pretty negative.
One person is continually offensive, condescending and quite arrogant - Jason Shaffer. His posts generally add nothing but personal insults against anyone who dare saying something negative.
Yes Jason your never wrong.
Sad but very funny.
Need I say more. You get them from time to time just best avoided and let them spout their hot air. Going out to purposefully insult people is a sad way to live your life Jason. But if that's what turns you on - just glad I don't have to have anything to do with you.
Thomas? When will you let us know what the changes on the CSP V2.5 will be....it's close to 28/05/2015 and still no news about it.
Pre order date allready shifted to 30/07/2015...so I really wanna know what changes are made before they arive here, please.
That's why I'm asking for more info on the improvements.