Load Cell Problem in Club Sport V3 Pedals

John MustanichJohn Mustanich Member
in Pedals
I just took delivery of the Club Sport 2.5 base and the V3 pedal set. Prior to that I was using a Thrustmaster T300 RS GT with the T3PA pedals which I modified by adding a Ricmotech load cell. When using the load cell the pedal travels one inch before it hits the load cell stop at which time braking begins. Pressure alone changes the brake force from 0 to 100%. The pedal itself doesn't move. The Fanatec V3 are advertised as having a 90kg adjustable load cell, however, mine act like there is no load cell installed. Braking begins when the pedal is depressed and reaches 100% when the pedal reaches the mechanical stop. The only way to modulate the brake force is by altering the position of the pedal. This is NOT how a load cell works. Did I receive a faulty set, or are other users experiencing the same problem? I have an open support ticket and am waiting for a reply, but I'd sure like to know what other users think. Thank You.

Comments

  • Remco Van DijkRemco Van Dijk Member
    The pedals work as they should, however your expectation of the load cell is different from how it is implemented in the default configuration. The load cell has always primarily been used in the ClubSport Pedals to allow the brake pedal to be as heavy as a real-life brake pedal. Luckily, you can adjust the CSP v3 to your liking so you can turn the brake pedal into a pressure-sensitive device.

    A load cell starts giving output once pressure is put on it. The default configuration of the CSP v3 is that pressure build-up starts as soon as you push the pedal down, and the load cell also starts outputting signal without threshold. You can adjust all of this using the adjustments on the pedals and in the Fanatec driver.
    If needed, you could also purchase the brake performance kit that makes the CSP v3 work even more like a fully pressure-sensitive device.
  • John MustanichJohn Mustanich Member
    edited August 2019
    First of all let me ask - is this an official answer from a company representative? I'll assume it is. You are actually telling me that this is how your load cell pedal works? Have you never driven a real car? If there is a way to make the pedal behave as I described above (Thrustmaster/Ricmotech did it nicely) then please tell me how. I've played with all the mechanical adjustments on the pedal, and with the software variations, and the pedal never acts like a load cell pedal. The amount of braking is dependent on position of the pedal and not by pressure against an immovable load cell. I can't believe I downgraded myself from a very workable and responsive Thrustmaster/Ricmotech load cell pedal system and bought your pedals which cost twice as much and perform (let me be frank) like ****.  I can't begin to express my disappointment at being duped into believing this was a load cell system when in fact it's just using pedal position to modulate braking with a few gizmos added for damping and friction.
    Not to be completely negative, I must say the rest of the system and the quality of the components are great. The force feedback is 10x better than the Thrustmaster and the steering precision you can obtain driving with your system is much much better. However, your bloody brakes are costing me 1 second per lap - a second it took a lot of hard work to achieve. I do hope there is a fix for this, or do I ask for a refund.
  • John MustanichJohn Mustanich Member
    I spent all morning touring Sim Racing websites and watching Fanatec-related You Tube videos, and I can now breathe a sigh of relief knowing I didn't throw $1,400 down a rat hole.  Your load cell does indeed work properly when the correct adjustments are made. So.....case closed. I'm satisfied. I got my second back with a couple of extra tenths to boot.  I will leave you with one final thought: A user should not have to go to outside sources to find out how to work your product. It might behoove you to go watch some videos yourself made by people who use your products and know a great deal about their practical application.  You should also spend a small percentage of the money you use on your fancy packaging to write a detailed, comprehensive manual and then have it edited by someone who is expert in English grammar and usage. It would avert frustrated dummies like me from wasting your time wanting answers to questions which to you seem obvious, but to me not so much. Thank you for your time and input.
  • Dominic BrennanDominic Brennan Member, Administrator
    John Mustanich said:
    I spent all morning touring Sim Racing websites and watching Fanatec-related You Tube videos, and I can now breathe a sigh of relief knowing I didn't throw $1,400 down a rat hole.  Your load cell does indeed work properly when the correct adjustments are made. So.....case closed. I'm satisfied. I got my second back with a couple of extra tenths to boot.  I will leave you with one final thought: A user should not have to go to outside sources to find out how to work your product. It might behoove you to go watch some videos yourself made by people who use your products and know a great deal about their practical application.  You should also spend a small percentage of the money you use on your fancy packaging to write a detailed, comprehensive manual and then have it edited by someone who is expert in English grammar and usage. It would avert frustrated dummies like me from wasting your time wanting answers to questions which to you seem obvious, but to me not so much. Thank you for your time and input.
    Hi John, I think you had a different expectation of how a load cell can feel in a brake pedal application. Your suggestion that it only works properly after certain adjustments is a little unfair. The V3 load cell works properly under all settings. The V3 brake pedal is significantly more adjustable (both physically and through software calibration) than the previous hardware you were using, so it is understandable that it took some time to find a configuration that felt similar.

    Your earlier statement that "the amount of braking is dependent on position of the pedal" is incorrect. The brake works through load cell sensitivity at all times, regardless of configuration, and the percentage of brake input delivered to the sim is never measured by position. As we allow the throw of the pedal to be set quite long, it means that some configurations might still feel 'position-based' to some extent, but that is by design, and that level of flexibility is the norm for high-end load cell pedals. We offer a Brake Performance Kit that significantly stiffens and shortens the throw while maintaining a good 'feel', but even on the stiffest possible setting with the Brake Performance Kit, there is still a small amount of pedal travel involved.

    In terms of documenting the brake adjustability, I don't feel like the manual is missing key information; the functionality of every brake adjustment is covered, including the important manual calibration steps on pages 31 and 32. But I agree that the descriptions could be clearer on why certain types of adjustments might be useful, for example being able to set a minimum value on the brake pedal to create a deadzone for the initial pedal travel. I've noted your feedback, and I'll see if the pedal manual can be revised. Perhaps it's a good idea for a future video tutorial too.

    I'm glad you've found a good feeling with the brakes now, and that you're enjoying the rest of the hardware too.
  • John MustanichJohn Mustanich Member
    Good grief, you should be a lawyer. I'm not gonna argue with you about the function of a load cell. Suffice to say, all the fancy explanations aside, that the 'default' position of the piston is set so the brake does work by position and not by load cell pressure which is what initiated my problem. Cranking the position of the piston to the exact opposite of your default position enables the load cell to function as it should. Why you send it out in the position you do baffles me, but it's your product and your decision. While we don't agree on the technicalities, I do want to thank you for spending the time and effort to address my problem although as I said, neither you nor your vague manuals solved it. The guys on You Tube did, and now that it's set properly it works great.
  • Remco Van DijkRemco Van Dijk Member
    John Mustanich said:
    Good grief, you should be a lawyer. I'm not gonna argue with you about the function of a load cell. Suffice to say, all the fancy explanations aside, that the 'default' position of the piston is set so the brake does work by position and not by load cell pressure which is what initiated my problem. Cranking the position of the piston to the exact opposite of your default position enables the load cell to function as it should. Why you send it out in the position you do baffles me, but it's your product and your decision.  
    Looks like a semantics issue to me. The load cell always provides output based on pressure, but the hardware and driver settings determine whether the braking power scales with pedal travel or with pedal pressure. Your interpretation of the CSP hardware led you to expect only the latter, while in reality the CSP can let you have everything. Since in reality by far the most cars have brakes operated by pedal position and computer games feature many such 'normal' cars, this is the default setting of the hardware which agrees with most people's expectations of such pedal hardware. 


  • John MustanichJohn Mustanich Member
    As I said, your product, your decision. and you'll defend it until the cows come home. Fine, no problem. Lemme ask you this: I just went through the pedal manual cover to cover once again, and there is no mention of the available adjustment for throttle throw. The 'default' position gives a throw almost twice that of a normal auto throttle, and there is absolutely no mention anywhere that this can be adjusted down to a reasonable setting merely by the turn of a couple of nuts. Another  oversight? How many more little gems lurk between the pages of the manual you defend so vehemently?
  • Dominic BrennanDominic Brennan Member, Administrator
    Hi John,

    You are correct that a mention of throttle throw adjustment is not in the manual, and this is intentional. We decided that the throttle adjustment should remain as a 'bonus' feature for those who are resourceful enough to discover it. The main reason why it is not mentioned is because we once made a video about our ClubSport pedals showing advanced adjustments such as this, and other potential modifications. As a result, our support team received a huge number of broken pedals, and many more that had been adjusted to a point where they were unusable.

    Adding such information to the manual is not that straightforward. There are technical limitations to these adjustments and exceeding those can harm (the functionality of) the product. It is something we will continue to discuss internally.
  • John MustanichJohn Mustanich Member
    "A bonus feature for those who are resourceful enough to discover it" eh?  What other little tidbits of information are hiding and waiting for only the resourceful customers? You just revealed an extraordinary bit of truth, and because of  that disgusting admission this conversation is terminated. What you said is a blatant admission of duplicity, and in effect says that you can't be trusted. Now you go discuss that internally, and don't bother messaging me anymore because I won't read it.
     
  • Remco Van DijkRemco Van Dijk Member
    edited August 2019
    I will respond, however, because I really dislike your tone in this forum and the fact that you're seemingly not able or willing to understand what's being said. Maybe it will help others reading this thread to understand the topic at hand.

    The CSP offer great adjustability, but only to those who need it and know how to do it. The standard configuration, plus limited amount of adjustments, is sufficient for 99% of its users so there's no requirement at all to cover all of the adjustment possibilities in the manual.

    The CSP have not been designed to provide endless moddability for everyone, or to provide all kinds of possible adjustments in a 100% risk-free way. Only a few essential modifications/adjustment were designed to be done in a risk-free way, the rest is possible but at the customer's own risk, and that's why those adjustments are not covered in the manual.
  • Herrmann MichaelHerrmann Michael Member

    @ John what is your problem. Got up with the wrong foot? You ask a question which you get answered more than in detail and then have nothing better to do, than question things. It is not surprising that other manufacturers do not provide such support at all.

    excuse the bad english
  • Frédéric MatterFrédéric Matter Member
    Hello John,

    I don't really understand why you suspect duplicity in the answers you have received here.

    I'm not a Fanatec official, just a customer like you (although I have developped a good relationship with the team over the years) so what I will say here is just my opinion but you can't say the default CSP brake settings is position based.

    It is however true the feeling with the default settings can look like a position based pedal (driven by a potentiometer or hall effect) due to the long pedal travel but it is still driven by pressure (there is no potentiometer or hall sensor on this pedal, only a loadcell that you can see without disassembling).

    Also position based pedals driven by potentiometer (or hall sensors) are most of the time linear (x% of pedal travel = x% of output signal), and I don't think the CSP output signal is linear VS pedal travel even at the default settings.

    I have always thought this default setting was a compromise made to make the transition easier for people coming from travel-based pedals (very likely the majority of Fanatec new customers). So this is a default compromise and it can be changed by using different elastomer springs for people who prefer a stiffer brake pedal (and with less travel too), closer to real race cars (after using the default setting for a long time I have this performance kit installed too now, and it was a game changer for me).

    It is true the CSP product page could explain a bit more about this feature for new customers who are not used to Fanatec products. The CSPv3 already has a built-in preload system to stiffen the brake pedal but the performance kit allows to go beyond that, with even more stiffness and less pedal travel. This kit was just released (and designed) after the pedals were released, this is maybe why this performance kit is not well described on the pedals product page itself (it is just listed as a compatible product at the bottom of the page, so yes this CSP product page could be updated to explain more about this kit when buying the pedals).

    A completely static pedal (driven 100% by pressure) is theoritically possible too (with no dampening material at all before the loadcell) but then the risk of damaging the loadcell sensor would be greater I guess. It could work without issue for someone staying within the sensor specs but someone else applying more strenght would then risk to damage/break the sensor.

    Beside this Fanatec has always been listening to customers' feedbacks. They won't accept every suggestion of course, and they can also be hard to convince sometimes, but they do hear feedbacks from their customers and improvements are made when necessary. Some of their products, like the H-shifter, have even been designed based on the most wanted features and materials after asking the community. So immediately suspecting duplicity may just not be the best way to share your concerns after an official has tried to help you. I personally find the answers you have received here were transparent, many other companies wouldn't have told you why they don't document anymore this or that setting in their user manual ;)
  • Ronald HerrmannRonald Herrmann Member
    Don't want to get to far off topic, but where can I find info on how to adjust the throttle throw?
  • John MustanichJohn Mustanich Member
    It's very simple. Look at the piston attached to the rear of the pedal and you will see two nuts. Loosen both of them and turn the piston rod. You can't go the wrong way because it's already set at max throw. The more you turn the rod the shorter the throw becomes. I dunno where the limit is or what happens if you reach it, but that is the reason they give for not telling us how to do it (ha). I turned mine out about an inch, and it now has a perfect throw. When you have what you want just tighten the nuts back up and you're set.
  • Jason SmartJason Smart Member

    I will say the tone on here feels harsh on all sides and I can understand the frustration. I can understand John's frustration, as when you spend so much money on Fanatec equipment, you expect to see the gains over alternatives pretty quickly. I've been messing around with settings on these pedals for almost a week now and am still learning and figuring it all out. It's frustrating to hear that there are various tips and tricks, especillay that are not in the manual, to achieve the right feel when the equipment is relatively sensitive/fragile and you can easily void the warranty and Fanatec is not highly regarded for it's customer service on these matters. An example of how the manual could be improved would be to have a flowchart or diagram showing what changes a user wants in feel, and how to adjust those, along with disclaimers about what changes/modifications will void the warranty.

    It also sounds like there's miscommunication here. I will say pretty difinitively that there is something going on that causes the pedal to emulate a position sensed device instead of load cell, and I can't yet figure out why. But when I switched out springs (rubber pieces) in the brake, it took significantly more force to reach 100% brake force. This is NOT how a load cell should work. the only change should be the final position when you hit a given force. This leads me to believe that something else is going on, maybe there is added friction somewhere? Maybe the rubber springs are expanding and binding up and therefore not transmitting all of the load to the load cell? Maybe I didn't apply enough lithium grease? But the manual does not specify how much to apply... But the point is, I obviously know it's a load cell and I know how it works, but some kind of phenomen is preventing it to act purely as a load cell. The manual doesn't help figure this out, and for the most part, I'm struggling to troubleshoot it through the internet. So on matters like this, it would be nice if Fanatec were more helpful, clear, etc. Also the trial and error process for adjusting all of this is a bit of a pain considering the process involved to make edits to the physical setup, which I should add also involves removing the pedals from a rig because of how the equipment is accessible from underneath. So it would be nice if the manual maybe gave numbers specifying things. Maybe load/displacement for certain spring combinations? Or even a quantified increase in travel/stiffness instead of qualitative soft/medium/hard. And the crux of all of it is that given the amount of variability and adjustment, and vagueness of the manual, it's very difficult to know if something is or is not functioning as intended.

  • Jason SmartJason Smart Member

    Is the problem here that the pedal auto calibrates???

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