This is something that has been bothering me so much. Please let me know your thoughts on this.
So true Douglas. You're right. Not to mention all that, we are two plus years down the track with the Fanatec DD wheels and we still don't have reliable and stable Fanatec firmware, settings and software! And you're right, it is a scam and they need to do something about this fast, before they alienate their customer base. A customer base which will very shortly have a very big new option on the table - the all new Thrustmaster DD wheelbase, which believe me, is coming!
Nothing wrong with the option to purchase an add on as long as it is something that’s mentioned before someone makes a purchase and that’s the case here. Or is Apple for example also one big scam because they offer upgrades when you buy any of their products?
It isn’t like you are buying something that’s unusable without the booster kit and it certainly isn’t a scam, maybe you should look up exactly what a scam is 😉
So I don’t agree with you opinion, for me this is nothing more than another YouTuber who is trying to get some followers with an opinion and a clickbait title to gather some views. There are way to much of those self proclaimed YouTube reviewers with an opinion and the lack of technical knowledge who do nothing more than reading the product brochure.
For most people that 5Nm will be fine, especially when you add a “cheap” plastic wheel to it with a small diameter. When you are going to put the Podium Porsche rim on it you probably want to have that additional torque but you should ask yourself then if it was smart to buy the CSL DD instead of a DD1/2 😉
About the whole driver, firmware, software part mentioned above, I agree partially with that. Yes Fanatec isn’t the most “reliable” company when it comes to this part, there are some issues that are open for more than a year on the DD bases but that doesn’t make it a scam. I do agree Fanatec should take this part of their products more seriously because the hardware certainly isn’t the problem.
Fanatec you have made a product that is designed to run at 8nm. if the extra manufacturing cost between the two power supply options was large £50+ then we could all understand, but its not large is it, is under £10 isn't it, maybe even less than £5?
but saying this we have seen no price as of yet, so at the moment this smells like we will be getting hit with a large £££ by this 180 power option but lets hope not.
if you are going forward with this then hopefully its a @ checkout option +£20 or maybe +£30 (MAX) this would also save 100s of unused and unwanted power bricks messing the place up. but if we find that this 180 power brick is a extra £60+ then, users will pay it but do you want to play games like this moving forward?
Yeah, would have been better to just sell a 8 Nm unit!.. Then almost everyone would have been happy.
I never heard anyone complain about the DD1 / 2 who internally probably are just as similar as the CSL DD and the CSL DD with the booster kit. Maybe there are some internals that have a different spec but at the end of the day the manufacturing costs for a DD2 are probably on the same level as a DD1.
So why is it a problem with the CSL DD and no one ever complained about the DD1 vs DD2 while in that case you don't even have the option to upgrade to a better spec other then selling the DD1 and buying the DD2 which will most likely cost you a lot more than a booster pack.
Besides that, the price point of €349,- is quite low, way lower than everybody expected and you will get a DD base for it based on the latest technology... i would rather say that a bargain! Purchasing a booster kit will rise that price but as long as it's kept at €100,- or less the whole package is still a bargain when it performs as expected.
Let's just first wait and see how it performs without the booster kit before jumping into conclusions, probably for most people that 5Nm will be perfectly fine and the booster kit would be a nice addon for the people who are coming from a CSW and don't want to hand in on torque or the people who are running a larger diameter of wheels.
Nobody ever complained about the DD1 vs DD2 as they both have enough peak torque for almost everybody. Fanatec are aware of this which is why they include a $99 stop button and a 5 year warranty as standard with the DD2 to justify the increased cost. And cosmetically different shrouds that nobody cares about.
5 nM on the CSL DD is at face value strange decision as it is a step back. Granted - there will be lots of advantage over the old CSL that come with the move to DD but not just releasing the 8nM version is strange - that would have avoided this discussion, made this an absolute no brainer and the cost increase could have been minimal - and it would have simplified things both for the consumer as well as in the manufacturing and inventory side.
Hi, am new to sim racing. Like to make a comment toward this situation, for me it's not scam at all. if you look at iPhone they got different storage sizes and price bump up every £100 per step up. It's same as some laptop power brick, if you want bigger brick you need to pay the cost. Am pleased to see CSL DD at 350 euro for base so it'll replace the CSL elite at same level so no one is expected to pay more and get latest technology. I'm hoping that the booster pack will come in two options, one being at the point of ordering so they can charge less and exchange the 5Nm brick to 8Nm brick and other being add-on on it's own as not everybody got luxury to splash out on all options or want to have higher torque.
Hoping they are making wise move such as CSL DD std - 350, CSL DD boosted - 400 while adding CSW DD std(10Nm) - 550 & CSW DD boosted(15Nm) - 600. Then it would make sense as next step up is DD1 for 1100 and comes in at 20Nm
Boosted packed should cost 50 euro on top while boost brick on it own should cost 100 on it's own then am sure everybody will be happy.
For software, Fanatec user saying software isn't up to speed. other products user are saying same thing such as graphic card etc as software keep evolving and so is the others, once one thing made a step forward, the rest are playing catch-up.
True, but 5Nm is enough for most people who are coming from a Thrustmaster or Logitech entry level set and probably also for most of the CSL elite owners. And i understand why they choose for this option (without having all the business info), keep it on €349,- and keep it profitable with probable a reasonable margin on it so everybody says "wow how is this even possible, a DD with way better build quality (gone are the plastics) for the same price as a CSL Elite cost"
That Nm torque you loose nobody cares after all the good news and probably most people didn't even ran it at 100% FFB because you will get nuts of all the noise a CSL elite creates when you put it under pressure.
Then throw in the optional booster kit that will unlock CSW specs for an additional price of somewhere between €75,- and €100,- and that's going to be a no brainer for 75% of the people, and it's a win-win for Fanatec. At the end they still earn as much per wheelbase as they would initially but also had the applause for releasing a new DD wheelbase with exactly the same price as it's predecessor and except for the torque way better specs and that 1Nm loss of torque will be forgotten at the end.
If they gave it the exact same 6Nm as the CSL elite now has nobody would have bought the optional booster kit since most people would say "it's was enough on my CSL Elite so why even bother". Make it 5Nm so the gain to 8Nm is significant, give it a proper price and it becomes a no brainer for most people and to be honest, even if that booster kit will cost you an additional €100,- it's still a bargain for €449,- in total and still €100,- cheaper than the CSW V2.5.
So probably i'm the only one but i see why they did it doesn't give me a bad taste, keep the price as low as possible to lure as much people in as you can, add an optional booster kit that will be a no brainer for most people and you are covering up a bigger part of the market then just price if for €449 and only offer the 8Nm . And once they are in the Fanatec eco system you got them... i'm nothing better because although i have a SC2 sport at the moment next to my DD2 i don't wan't to sell my DD2 even though the drivers and software are a mess because of that eco system and the fact that i already invested in wheels.
About the software part, this isn't going about features but it's going about quality. I wouldn't mind some features would be written off as long as the stuff that is in there and sold as a feature works as described. The software of the Podium DD1 and DD2 have never been "bug free" (as far as that's possible) from the day of the release.
And having bugs is one thing... leaving them open for more than 1,5 year without any known progress on it, still selling it as a feature on the product page and keep adding new stuff instead of fixing old first is a whole other thing.
The difference with the DD1 and 2 is that you don't buy a upgrade for the DD1 making it a DD2, they are 2 different units.
But that would have made more sence if they then did a CSL DD1 and CSL DD2 with 5 vs 8 Nm, if they felt a need to have a 5 Nm version.
what would be the difference then? people can choose to buy the small PSU first, see if the force is enough or not, if not they can upgrade.
With a strict CSL DD1 and DD2, people would have to make the choice before purchase. Way easier with the upgraded PSU to order if the 5Nm shouldn't be enough.
You throw a lot of assumptions and statistics in there without producing any evidence. Will be interesting to see how many buy this without the 8nM upgrade. This will tell us if your presumption that those upgrading from TM or Logitech think 5nM is enough is correct - or not.
Price increases a lot when going to bigger PSUs.
Going by the torque, the 8Nm psu would be expected to have 40% more power compared to the 5Nm psu.
When you come out with a product like that, where you want to achieve a certain retail price, every euro counts. Let's be realistic, nobody has even come close to that price.
As long as Fanatec gives you the option to get the 8Nm version for 20-50€ more at the time of purchase this IMO is totally acceptable.
Forcing you to buy an additional psu at the time of original purchase would be environmentally irresponsible and a poor business practice.
This question was answered today in a German Forum. Short: nothing will be environmentally irresponsible and poor business practice.
The CSL DD will not ship with any PSU by default. You Manually have to select either the small PSU or the Boost Kit 180 Upgrade when you order the CSL DD which will then be shipped with the CSL DD. So you wont have two PSUs with one floating around gathering dust ;)
It was also said that the BK180 will be offered with a small Discount at the beginning when directly Ordered Together with the CSL DD as a small purchase incentive to protect the environment. :)
8 is 60% greater than 5.
True, those are assumptions. But i really think most of the people who are in the market for a wheelbase at the lower end of the market or coming from an entry level wheelbase will see it as an upgrade they can do later on. Especially because most of those people also need to buy a set of pedals and a steering wheel and they probably already needed to stretch that budget a bit. If you are coming from a CSL elite and the wheelbase is the only upgrade you are going to make the story looks a whole lot different.
At the end it depends on what that booster kit is gonna cost, if it raises the price with another €100,- i think a lot of people will purchase it afterwards (when they aren't part of the Fanatec eco system), if it's an additional €50,- the story probably looks a bit different.
If i where in the market for a budget wheelbase (and luckily i'm not, my wife would see me coming 😉) i think i wouldn't buy it directly and see how it performs with that 5Nm first. A G29 has to do it with half the torque i believe and the average Thrustmaster wheelbase sits somewhere between 3 and 6Nm if i'm correct but those are both not a DD wheelbase and as an former CSW owner going to a DD2/SC2 i didn't choose them in the first place for the extra Nm of torque but the accuracy (and even that wasn't the big jump i thought it would be).
But yeah, it all depends on the price they are going to charge for that booster kit.
Different because Fanatec doesn't give you the option to let you upgrade it but internally they probably differ just as much as the CSL DD and the CSL DD with the booster kit (ok that's a bit exaggerated). 😉
According to Fanatec some internals should differ also (besides the carbon face plates and the start stop button they tossed in the box) but even if that would be the case the gap between those 2 internally is probably pretty small and nobody ever complained about that, so as long as you don't give people the choice to upgrade later that's fine, but if it's an optional purchase you can do later we are making an issue of it?
Personally i don't see the problem with giving people the option to upgrade something later on, i wish more manufacturers would give you that option instead of forcing you to make a choice that doesn't give any room after a purchase. Apple does that for example, i'm a long time Mac Mini user and i hate it that they force you nowadays to buy something that can't be upgraded later on but instead you are obliged to buy something with the future in mind because some additional ram or replacing an SSD... sorry, you have to buy a new one.
Correct. Don't know what I was thinking
Agree... people are looking this in the wrong way, as a CSL Base owner this is an upgrade for me, not sure if I will get it since I also play on PlayStation, at the end it will be up to you, if you are looking for torque well there is the CSW or DD’s, which ever is the outcome of this after the real reviews are out this change the game.
Software of course they need to do better.
But an scam? They just told you everything about it is not like they are hiding the fact that you need the add on to unlock the extra torque.
People that they think fanatec is scamming without unlocking the potential of the wheelbase motor from start, most probably have not bought a car (yes they don't unlock full HP on the engine and keep it for special editions or upgrades with extra costs.) so are they scamming you as well? 🤣🤣🤣
Grow up people. It is what it is. You cannot ask for full edition on the price of the basic option.
You might be surprised, for how many people 5NM is already more than enough.
I'm a reasonably young and fit guy, but I have wrist problems. The CSL Elite at maximum doesn't tire my arms out enough to be a problem, but it can do a tremendous number on my wrists after a day of hard oval racing.
Another thing to consider: Perhaps Fanatec absolutely demanded a $350 price point, and having a smaller supply allowed them to hit that point without sacrificing any more than they already had to. The -option- of having 60% more force at a higher price is really nice. Many many people keep to a sensible budget, and for a ton of products all across life ~$300-400 is the absolute limit many people are willing to spend.
I could (and perhaps should) go on but...
Posting drama for the sake of exposure, completely ignoring the needs and wants of people who aren't you... Gave ya' a thumbs down.
Wow, what an unnecessary complaint!
Most products that have a "range" charge more for more features/capacity/etc - lots of people want to pay more for extra capacity in their iPhone, or features on their car, or a bigger hard drive.
If the bigger PSU was the only option, the CSL DD price might have been $399 instead, which could cut out a lot of market share. If the PSU upgrade is an extra $50 - I'd choose it, but plenty of people may not.
It's a physical limitation of the smaller PSU too, not just a software unlock.
Isn't the DD1 and DD2 the same motor? Your argument is basically "why don't they just have the DD2 and no DD1!"
Why are there so many people here defending this practice because it's done in other industries? Personally since one PSU isn't being wasted I don't have much of a problem with this but saying "they do this with cars/phones whatever" is a very silly point.
As long as Fanatec isn’t sending out 2 power bricks when you add the booster kit to your order directly I really don’t see the issue, because of the lighter version they could probably stick to €349,- for the cheapest version… so that keeps it in reach for most people who are looking for a budget friendly but high quality wheelbase, I can’t see anything wrong with that.
My personal opinion is that 5nm is enough for me, and if I can get this product at a lower cost because they gave me the option then I'm down with that. If they just had the 8nm model for $100.00 or even $50.00 more, I might not be inclined to purchase it since I just bought the CSW 2.5 a few months ago, but the $350.00 price point works well for me.
5nm would be a decent step up compared to my current wheel, a Fanatec CSR. But for the sake of clipping mitigation, I will most likely get the 8nm kit. Just as long as it's not stupidly priced.
As for this being a scam... No. It isn't. Fanatec isn't advertising this as an 8nm wheelbase for $350, with fine print saying that the $350 is for the 5nm wheel. Nor is Fanatec launching a kick-fund panhandle for development of this wheel. We know the price for the standard wheelbase, and we know the more powerful power supply will cost extra. As nice as it would be to know how much the BK180 will be, this still isn't deceitful on Fanatec's part. So where is the scam?
I'm happy to see many chiming in on this topic. Thank you all for adding to the discussion. I am very curious as to how Fanatec handles this.
They are probably selling this at a loss, its common practice with consoles to be sold at a loss and recoup the money of software. Although fanatec isnt that big a company, although they have the ecoh system which is pretty much essential purchases after the base. The wheels and pedals arnt cheap, handbrake shifter. If your new to fanatec youll need to drop atleaset a grand. Its certainly not a scam, its pretty ballsy business wise. Thats why the psu being sold separately is happening. Its like buying a printer for 50 quid then finding out the ink cartridges cost 55.
I get where he's coming from but I think it's worth looking at from a different angle. The CSL 1.1 and CSW 2.5 are both sold out and their production runs look to be over. As in product life span has come to and end. The new CSL DD appears to be the successor. Base at 5NM is almost a direct replacement for the CSL 1.1. For the same price you lose 1NM and gain DD. Some will balk at loosing 1NM but to me seems like a good entry level base. Assuming the 'Boost Kit' (silly name in my opinion) is from $100 to $200 then you have a replacement for the CSW 2.5. Both at 8NM and now DD. On paper it's an upgraded option from the old. The benefit of this structure is that if you buy in on the low end and then end up wanting to upgrade you don't have to sell your CSL 1.1 like some people do to then buy a CSW 2.5. You just buy the kit and all is good. Hopefully seeing as the power supply shouldn't cost $200 (or even $100) the cost to get to CSW 2.5 performance will be less. But until they release pricing it's all conjecture.
They could release it only at 8NM but the price will likely be up, even if slightly, increasing the cost into their eco system. If they kept the price as low as they could get away with then the gap to the other units would be even bigger making it harder for people to justify upgrading. It's a business model and while it can be argued that it's not fair that's just silly. If it's bad people will stop buying their stuff. They will then either revert, find a new course, or go out of business. When I bought into their eco system it was for what they offered that day and what I 'hoped' they would offer going down the road. But there is no guarantee.
And one more point, the whole thing about when I buy a car you get the whole car and don't have to pay to unlock things analogy is crap. Fanatec is actually doing one better by letting you later upgrade to a higher spec that is contained in the product. Most cars have several features that are offered as options or on higher trim levels that are not activated. And you cannot pay the dealer to have them activated, you have to buy a new car as your only 'legit' option. I had a Ford Fusion (Mondeo everywhere else). Using FORScan and some instructions on the intertubes I was able fully enable the tire pressure sensors for each tire. This includes putting the display in my dash. It was always there but was part of a different trim. There were a few other items I enabled as well. So yes, there are options in your car that they want to pay more for, you just have to do it when you buy it or later buy a new car with those options.
It's the internet so we will all have different opinions and think everyone else is wrong. I don't think ya'll are wrong, I just see it the way I do. And may change my mind one day. YMMV.
The car analogy, is a terrible analogy in the first place. Cars are sold with physically different equipment in them. A Mustang Ecoboost doesn't have a software restriction preventing it from being Mustang GT with a V8 engine. A better thing to compare Douglas T's opinion, would be; on disk, day one DLC. That is content that has literally been shipped with each game, but you have to pay more money to unlock it. I assume that is what people think the lower priced unit is doing.
The way I see it, the lower priced PSU costs Fanatec "x" amounts of dollars to make, while the higher priced PSU costs "y" dollars. Essentially to get 8nm I have to pay the price that covers "y", along with the price of the rest of the base and, what ever profit Fanatec is seeking. Arguing that Fanatec is ripping me off if I buy the 5nm setup, cause the potential to run it at 8nm was there all along; completely ignores the cost difference between the "x" and "y" power supplies. That's why I see this as an asinine argument. If you want 8nm, pay the "y" price. It's not like Fanatec is sending you a special firmware that will unlock 8nm, without you having to use a different PSU. If that what Fanatec was doing, then I would be saying the same thing. I assume anyone would be saying that was scummy.
Although this is late, and I am guilty of it as well but, can we agree to stop telling Fanatec what we want the price of the PSU to be? Some of the prices I am seeing are just plain stupid. That much for a power supply... Really? If you ask me, Fanatec already has a price in mind for the PSU. Lets stop giving them justification to charge as much as a 750 watt 80+ Platinum PC PSU.