NASCAR Bans the confederate flag
Thomas Jackermeier
Member
I would like to express my full support for the decision of our partner NASCAR to ban the confederate flag which is a political symbol and was used by many supporters of slavery.
Any sport should not be a platform for political activists. Drivers, team members and the audience are at a race to enjoy the action or amuse themselves.
I would feel very uncomfortable if somebody would wave a Swastica besides me and I am not even jewish with relatives which were killed by the Nazis. Forbidding the Swastica is not against the Germans or against German pride. It is to ban a symbol of cruelty and I am not offended by such a ban because I absolutely never ever sympathised with the diabolic and racist exctinction of jews, gypsies, homosexuals and other minorities.
It is not about left or right. It is about wrong or right. And if you don't like that decision then I would kindly ask you to listen to those comments and rethink your position. This is not against the South, it is against stubborn supporters of slavery and please don't be the one who is offended now because someone took away your toy.
Comments
Thomas Jackermeier , with all due the respect, it is not a matter of political views, but symbols in history have been used and will continue to be used by bad or good people in order to pass their own ideas and explanations.
For example the swastica that you brought i.e. It was used by Hilter and the Nazis BUT it was originated by cultures of Eurasia as an ancient religious icon. Which is still used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Same goes also for the salute used by Hitler and the Nazis. It was also a rip off from ancient times. Should we ban both then because it was used by bad people?
What I want to say. You cannot ban something from History just because it is used by some people to promote their ideas. (good or bad). Same thing I guess goes with the confederation flag. Today it is used vastly for the Southern pride but because assholes are using it also to promote racism, let us ban it. (apologies but not that good in US history).
We live in very crazy times that everyone cannot keep a middle ground, think for themselves and have to be on the extreme opposite sites (based on what the media is feeding them), tagging people with names and criticism without discussions judging only from what we want to see and not the full picture, only because we want to be "politically correct", and to please mob that one day they are like that, and the next day like the other. I don't know from where, all the things happening in the world are coming from. Call it stupidity, lack of education, frustration, fake news, media herding sheeps, but for sure decisions that are being taken upon all the above is not right.
Another example is UK. Seriously... What people were thinking when they vandalized the statue of Churchill. That he was a racist? FFS the guy together with other leaders (good and bad, also for history and historians to judge) helped save Britain and end freaking WWII but still now he is being judged because he was in favor of colonialism, speaking bad for other countries/people that Britain had colonized before and usually in personal discussions after drinking a "few" whiskeys (he was know as a heavy drinker). So how do we judge him. Using one side or the other? I would say let us judge him for the bigger picture and his achievements.
USA, how many were the real protesters which did everything by the book, used their earned right to protest and how many other cheap bastards mofos, used the occasion to loot shops, steal, destroy other peoples properties and at the end make the real protesters look bad.
What do we see more in the media? Where is the full picture?
So in conclusion, instead of banning stuff that belongs in history, better to educate more ourselves (and our children) and not be sheeps to whatever media say and portrait it the way they want it just for their own cooperation and political agenda stuff.
I stand with Thomas on this one. We should listen to what black people say. Plenty of them don't feel comfortable going to NASCAR races because of the clueless idiots who fly that flag. Black people are more important than people holding onto the flag of slavery. That's not suddenly going to make the CSA disappear from history. It's assinine to think otherwise. We have these things called museums, books and videos that people learn from without people flying racist flags. There is no good that comes from that flag.
I've no idea why this is here on a website/forum for simracing gear. Leave this to the people who live in the former Confederate states. Fanatec should concentrate on selling simgear, innovate and such things.
As a historian I am also siding with Alexandros point of view. Personally to me It feels like the CEO is trying to lift with the current 'wave' to sell more Fanatec stuff, or so. 'See me talking good. Now buy my stuff.' I love Fanatec, tho, but this feels wrong. In other words, every man to his own trade.
Imma grab another tea, and go racing <3
However, it would also be nice to know where the company stands on fulfilling orders and current consumer outrage while they remain surprisingly silent on the matter.
Tim again. No sides has to be taken. It is always based on the people who see it, education and knowledge.
What I mean. Thomas gave an example with the Zwastika. People that dont know the symbol they might go to India and see it all over the place. They will feel offended? They shouldnt. I explained in my previous why not.
To my view nowdays, the confederation flag, it it is mostly used for southern pride, being a rebel and stuff. If people get offended and want to ban it because they dont feel confortable in Nascar races then dont go to nascar races. The North didnt have slaves at the time of the civil war? Wasnt USA until the 60’s (or 70’s) sepparating white folks and black folks? Should we ban the US flag too? Of course not.
What about people that get offended with the Hammer and Sickle of the ex-Soviet Flag. Shouldnt the Hammer and Sickle not to be used because someone that fled to USA might have lost relatives in the gulags?
Sorry mate but those people are the people that will always feel uncofortable with everything amd they will feel like it because they cannot find another way to standout, and because they get offended with everything meassueres like that are being discussed or taken. FFS, HBO might stop showing and taken down from their plattforms “Gone with the wind” or BBC deleting a Monty Pythons episode “ . Whats next? Banning “Dukes”, “Smokie and the Bandid”, “Cannonball Run”? Inorder for people not to feel offended?
Come on mate. It is just a “game” from people that will always get offended no matter what and always play the racism card and from the other side people lifting the racism card justo to bring forward their political agenda.
Dont forget that even the sentace “black people” shouldnt be use cause it sounds racist using the skin color to deacribe them.
Now as Rinus said.... Let us stop discussing such things in this forum (simracing) and let us go put some laptimes.
Well done Thomas for having the courage to bring this up - despite knowing that it would surely stir up "lively "debate.
This is a difficult issue for people to get their heads around because they some clearly don't understand the context these symbols are used in. The Swastika used by Hindus, Buddhists etc for hundreds of years is not the same symbol that was used by the Nazi party from the 1930's until the end of WW2 - the direction is reversed. More importantly, nobody should be shocked by seeing the symbol on temples in India, for example, because they should understand the context the symbol is being used in.
Likewise what is now referred to as the confederate cross was adopted by the KKK and other white nationalists because of it's link to the southern states who fought against the United States in the Civil War, largely due to the US's intention to abolish slavery. The Southern states were vehemently against this as they were reliant on slave labour and openly argued that white people were superior to black people - they literally argued "the negro is not equal to the white man".
The flag's use increased further during the civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's. Why? Southern Pride? Being a rebel? No - I don't think so. The flag was specifically chosen by these people as it symbolised their belief that whites are superior to blacks.
So even if some see it as just a pretty flag and think it should be able to fly without malice - they need to understand the hurt and anger that it instils in those who DO understand its history.
And if you think this matter is trivial, not worth taking a stand on, nothing to do with this forum, then please have the courage of your convictions and refrain from posting - by your logic it is irrelevant if the flag is flown or not so not worth worrying about.
Gary of course is noce to talk about such things based on facts and common knowledge.
you say that the swastika in Hindu is opposite direction, my hindu friends say that can be found in both directions.
you claim the past reassons for the natiolists and KKK using the federation flag, I claim that is done for whatever other reasson that might be used for.
both of us use our education, historical data and of course our brains so we can understand the differwnce.
People that see ONLY the bad way and by looking a flag are feeling offended, will find a gazzillion other things as well that people will point that hundreds years ago, without thinking and without thinking how the world moved on.
Take other extremes for example
UK, Churchill’s statue
Scotland, King Roberts statue in the battle of Bannockburg monument.
BBC banning the episode from Monty Pythons called “Dont mentioned the War”
HBO: “Gone with the wind”
And imagine, people protesting about these stuff is the same generation that grew up with South Park and Family Guy and didnt find offensive. 😉
Everyone has rights and everyone is equal and should be treated the same no matter of skin color, religion etc, but we need to be a bit more sceptical of the reassons behind every movement.
e.g I might be scared and offended by open carry of firearms because someone shot a relative of mine. Should I feel offended when I see a military emblem and ask to benned? When I see the ex USSR flag should I feel offended because communists killed my grandfateher? Or I might feel offwnded when seeing a gay pride parade. Should I ask to stop those or not seeing logos that are assosiated with it?
Imagine how the native Americans are feeling? Latino’s that even today people are pushing them around and being more sceptical against them? Chinese? All kind of immigrants in any country.
The examples are endless buddy and for each and everyone simply the answer is one. It depends who or how it is used. Better arrest and “ban” the people who are using for other ill purposes. Educate the people more that “this is not this” but nowdays means something else blah blah and move on.
For one more time we are looking at the one tree and miss/dont see the whole forrest behind it.
lastly, could you explain me what do you mean by
”And if you think this matter is trivial, not worth taking a stand on, nothing to do with this forum, then please have the courage of your convictions and refrain from posting”
🤔🤔🤔🤔
EDIT: PS. Today, the use of the Confederate flag is often controversial. While a number of non-extremists still use the flag as a symbol of Southern heritage or pride, there is growing recognition, especially outside the South, that the symbol is offensive to many Americans. However, because of the continued use of the flag by non-extremists, one should not automatically assume that display of the flag is racist or white supremacist in nature. The symbol should only be judged in context.
Like I said as someone who never lived in the former confederate states you can't have a opinion about the flag because you do not know what it means to the people there; the ins and the outs, etc. Someone from outside that area only has a point of view of similar objects, like the swastika and just copy that symbol or other symbols onto the flag and think copy it's context onto it. It's the same like people from outside the Netherlands have a opinion of Zwarte Piet. It's worth nothing, because they do not live there and do not have celebrate it in their youth, etc. Same with bullfighting, same with the Oktoberfest, same with Russians drinking vodka, same with everything historically. If you do not live there, or/and can't respect the golden rule of: Place- and time commitment. You should just stop what you doing and educate yourself, and stop posting on any social media. Just live and enjoy/care about your surroundings: city, province and live your life.
What I see companies and people doing is putting 21st centuries point of view and opinions onto historical stuff. That's because either they are uneducated or it's just virtue signalling, so people or companies think they're better than the rest and/or try to maintain a good reputation so they can sell stuff.
Now I go shopping and racing again, with all the people around me and I've no clue who's what race and who's what gender and we all have fun. That's how it must be here on a simracing forum/shop. Just racing and simgear. Nothing else. From my point of view I would advice to delete this blog and topic and concentrate on what makes Fanatec good: Simracing.
Edit: By the way. I never made a link with Fanatec and the Confederate flag. By posting this blog it automatically does. I've the feeling this blog exists because it was like: 'If we say nothing people think we support the confederate flag and we are are pro-slavery, etc' By posting this blog you automatically exclude a certain percentage of people from the former Confederate states to buy Fanatec, which is so conflicting with 'freedom' and 'freedom of speech' which is one of the points of this blog, so you're discriminating against such people, etc. So again: Concentrate on simgear and simracing.
Alexandros - You seem to be against progress and don't seem to understand that deciding to not to do something now that we used to do in the past is not the same as erasing history. History will always be there. We should remember it and learn from it - we don't need to continue doing things when we learn that they are wrong.
I'm not going to enter into discussion with you as I don't think there is any point. I see this as a positive decision, made at the right time. You seem to see this as just another example of "political correctness" grandstanding. I think we both know we will never agree on this.
Which Zwarte Piet, if I may add, no one would have heard off until Kim Kardasian tweeted in 2019.... 🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️ (unless he had Dutch Firends or lived there)
Let us go back to simracing.
watching Lemans practice and live 24h racing in portimao, while waiting for friend to go online. 😇
I have another flag example.
Japanese rising sun flag. Still used by Japan navy.
in your opinion it should be banned as well because ot was also used in the Japanese occupation of China etc etc.
Me? Against progress? This means that you didnt understand a single word from what I wrote.
At least, we can have opposite opinions but we cannot force it to each other, like people are doing at the moment with evwrything else. 😉
Anyway. Let us agree at least that we disagree then... 😊
Don't put words in my mouth - you have no idea what my view is on the rising sun flag. Or anything else. You are trying to paint me into your idea of "a type" as it gives you a reason to start ranting about everything from Robert The Bruce to Gone With The Wind! :-)
And as far as me not understanding a word you said - there is some truth in that. This thread is about a decision that nascar have made. I have no idea where you are going with this! Not sure you do...
Not portaiting or painting your type.
I mean that if we follow your example regarding the flag to be banned (as per the flag in question from Nascar) then the other should, because it is offensive for others too.
Not saying that you said that. Only bringing examples to your attention, how people are using people for their own “political” agendas around the world. (Hope it is clear now)
Anyway. Not going anywhere, but discussing that the decision of NASCAR is wrong for the reassons above, (as per my view) because it looks biased towards the trend and political correctness (I think they have tried again back in 2015 for the same reasson), but now they found the troubled times (wrong time) to do it again and not using/judging by the context for when and how it is used.
Hope is clear now.
as have stated in previous post
Everyone have to have rights and everyone is equal and should be treated the same no matter of skin color, religion etc, but we need to be a bit more sceptical of the reassons behind every “movement”.
Alexandros,
Of course I know that the swastica was not invented by the Nazis but they took this sysmbol and made it part of their marketing. The famous red flag with a black swastica on a white circle is world famous and 100% associated with Nazis and not with religion.
You say we should learn from history and I totally agree. In 1945 Germany has strictly banned all Nazi symbols, the Nazi salutation, the uniforms, changed street names with Nazis, changed uniforms and wiped out anything which helped the Nazis to build an identity and helped to keep this movement alive. Of course the flag was one of the most important things to ban. You can even go to jail if you deny what happened in the Holocaust here in Germany.
Remember that the Nazis were extreme racist and supporting slavery as well. And a lot of "normal" Germans were a least ignoring it or passively supporting this by not doing something against it.
So did the ban of the flag work in Germany?
Germany is now probably one of the most peaceful and open minded societies in the world. We still have some Nazis but probably less then in many other countries. And we make it very clear for those guys that there is no space for them or their Nazi symbols here in our modern society.
This is history now and other countries are welcome to learn from that.
Hi Thomas,
One of my points. We cannot compare and ask for the same meassures. If we start comparing the southerns of the civil war in USA with the Nazis and use same bans, laws etc, then we are scalling out of proportion.
understand the need of meassueres against racisms, but you cannot compare with other countries and use excactly the same meassure or else you end up doing mistakes and alternating history. See what is happening in UK, A lot of people are calling racist and delete all the good stuff he might have done for his country and the rest of the world in WWII.
What I am against is the time and the “real” reasson NASCAR decided to implement the ban.
(dont forget they have tried it in the past as well and didnt work for them)
now let us focus back in Sim Racing.
i would like to see a bloq posted for the fanatec’s entry in Virtual Le Mans instead of diacussing politics.
Good riddance to that flag.. took way too many years... I hear people say oh its about being a rebel lol. Ok. NAT TURNER was a true rebel but we won't celebrate him because the lives he took were of the falsey believed "superior" race.. anyway good riddance to that toilet paper flag.
Hey Marlon Leonard I'm Amerikkka Natives and Foundational Black Americans made me. I know what you mean except for the money issue. But you and I both know all too well what's happening in this world. All I can say is I solute you. Are you part of the Diaspora like me?
You opened the door so let me slam it open!
As a liberal thanks for the thought on the confederate flag but thats easy for you isnt it Thomas? Where do you make your product? Is it China? Any idea China's human rights record. Wont make that change will you you because that hurts your bottom line, right! Do you know your doing business with someone that has concentration camps!
What about the scum move not to pass on the VAT cut during a bad time in the world because you are selling like crazy and dont have to. What about the way your treating your fellow human with this terrible customer service.
This stuff is outrageously expensive, have you done anything to get this stuff in the hands of under privileged people or are you just going to exploit the capitalist system.
I despise these hypocrites that take any obvious side that costs them nothing but when it comes to real sacrifice they are nowhere to be found!
Anyone who supports BLM obviously doesn't get what they are all about. And if you see blacks as the victims in this whole thing you obviously haven't been around many of them. Too bad Fanatac management can't stay out of something they know little about. Come to Minneapolis and you'll see how fun diversity is.