Software Update To Include Max Loadcell Pressure
Jerome Powell
Member
in Pedals
I think it's be pretty straight forward to implement a readout (in kg) when you go to calibrate your max amount of pressure on loadcell brakes. This way, when I update my software (or upgrade to new pedals) and I have to recalibrate, I know exactly how much pressure to put in before I press the Max button in the fanatec software. This seems like a no-brainer. Can this get included in the next update?
Jerome
Comments
Such a feature would be a huge task and definitely not something which could be implemented quickly directly into the next driver, no.
Also, usually the pressure is defined by the BRF value, so why not using the same BRF value all the time after Firmware update?
I add that the force that registers the load cell is not the force that the foot makes on the pedal. The pedal is a lever, the force it registers depends on the geometry of the pedal, and on the positioning of the load cell with respect to its lever.
To measure the actual force your foot produces, load cells should be installed in the center of the pedal face.
The pedal lever geometry is however a constant. The driver already provides visual feedback of the force being applied to the pedal - the little bar that rises when you press the pedal. Adding a scale next to that bar in the UI would be trivial and would allow users to recalibrate to a previously known value. I agree that a KG value is meaningless - all that would be required is a numerical scale of 1-10.
That said, makes more sense to me to rely on muscle memory, i.e. set max at the force at which you can comfortably exert.
"That said, makes more sense to me to rely on muscle memory, i.e. set max at the force at which you can comfortably exert."
That does indeed make sense, but I think having a number to coincide with it would go a long way toward satisfying people who feel the need to have everything "just so", if you know what I mean. The same crowd who need their monitor's contrast setting to be at exactly 53, because even though 52 or 54 makes an imperceptible difference, 53 is where it has to be.
I think he was referring precisely to the pressure applied to the pedal, because it also speaks of the possibility of changing pedals and using the same value.
Otherwise the request would not make sense. The percentage would already be a more than reliable numerical scale. For example I use 85% on a 60 Kg LC, which corresponds to a pressure of 51 Kg.
Allesandro is correct. I want to have consistency with how much max brake pressure is applied not just when I open the software and click on my pedals, but also live when/if I change pedals or do a software update. I don't think this is a difficult task at all. If we know how much the actual max is in Kg and the pedals are measuring up to that amount with sensors, just display what the sensors are picking up. I hope this can get added, once added I think they will get a lot of positive feedback so us drivers can have truly consistent braking.
Jerome
Sich a feature can not and will not be added, at least not anytime soon this or next year, sorry.
You can already have a consistent braking by just using the same BRF value, also when you upgrade your pedals you can get the same Brake pressure by calculating which BRF value is the same pressure as on the old pedals (eg you used CSL P LCK (60kg) with BRF 85 = 51kg and now you upgrade to CSP v3 (90kg). To get the same 51kg you would need to use a BRF value of 57).
But then also the leverage and used PU foam or Elastomers can change the feel completely, it's not all about the kg anyway so you should not just blindly trust on some numbers which in theory are the same but trust on your feeling what BRF value feels good for you.
With Respect Maurice, I really don't think it is up to you to determine what can and will be added - certainly not in such a definitive manner.
Only Fanatec staff can decide what they will add. By all means express your opinion on the usefulness of such feature - but implying that it is for you to decide whether features are, or are not, added leads to confusion. As you often remind people when they imply otherwise - you are not Fanatec staff. Comments like this one are what leads to that confusion.
I'm afraid it's not possible. A pedal is a lever, and a lever is a force reducer (favorable lever), that is, it helps to exert force on a point. So each lever makes a different force depending on how it is made.
It's the same concept as the gearbox. Short ratios have more acceleration, while long ratios have more speed. Likewise, each pedal has a different ratio to the motor, which is your foot.
And I agree with Maurice, when he says that the feeling with the pedal also has its weight.
Compare CSL pedals and T-LCM. CSL customers complain that the brake is too hard, and modify it with mods to lighten it. Conversely, T-LCM customers find it too soft, and buy mods to make it hard. Yet T-LCM has a 100Kg LC, while CSL a 60Kg LC.
Yet T-LCM has a 100Kg LC, while CSL a 60Kg LC.
60kg with CSL Pedals is the force you have to apply on the pedal face, not the load cell rating.
60 Kg and 100 Kg are the nominal values of the load cell. The real value applied to the pedal is about 25-30 Kg.
This is not true.
I have CSL LC Kit and when BRF is set to MAX I measure 60kg. Of course there will be some deviation depending on how high the pedal face is set and where you push with your foot.
My pedal face is set to the middle position and here's what I'm measuring:
No, sorry, that's not how leverage works. They gave you incorrect information.
Let's say you have to lift 100Kg, and you have a lever of 120cm. The fulcrum is 20cm from the weight, so you have 2 arms of 20 and 100cm. If you push the lever to its furthest end it takes 20Kg to lift the weight, but if you hold it in the middle you will have to use 40. If you hold it at 20cm you will have to use 100Kg, but if you hold it at 10cm you will have to use 200. Not it matters how long the le a is, but rather how long you use.
So it doesn't matter where you have mounted the pedal faces, it just matters where you push with your feet.
Now pedal geometry can be complex, luckily CSL Pedals is simple.
We have a load cell mounted parallel to the pedal, with the elastomer rod roughly in the center of the pedal lever, and mounted perpendicularly at approximately 90 degrees. So all the thrust of the lever is transmitted to the LC. If it were not perpendicular only one component of the thrust would reach LC. The fulcrum is the base of the pedal where there is the screw that rotates the pedal. The arm of the foot is given from the base of the pedal to the point where you press, roughly in the middle of the face or just above. While the arm of the LC is from the base to the point where the elastomers engage, which is more or less the middle of the foot arm. So the ratio is about 1/2, to have 60Kg on LC it is necessary to push 30 Kg with the foot.
In addition, the LC manufacturer will not know how he uses his LC, so he can only provide the face value of the LC.
Could you please explain how I push at this point and measure 60kg if the load cell rating is 60kg?
And if you notice, when the face of the pedal is installed in the highest position, the lever is extended, just like it is in his video.
Because when you place the scale weighs people on the pedal (I did it too after watching a video), you actually place it on the entire pedal, including the lever, not just on the face. So all the weight is concentrated in the center of the lever, and that's exactly where the elastomer pushes on the LC. LC is 60 Kg, and you measure 60 Kg. I repeat too, I did it, and it took me a while to understand. I knew it was wrong, but I didn't understand.
Chris Haye used a baggage dynamometer and concentrated the force on the face of the pedal. This is more significant evidence because he used an "almost" right tool.
In fact that is also wrong, for example I push the pedal lower, so I have to do more force, but it is perfect for a comparison with another pedal board. Let's say he simulated the pressure of a person who has very large feet.
Let's simplify things as much as possible and measure the load cell directly.
I measured that at MAX BRF setting, 100kg of pressure is required to reach 100%.
If you don't believe me, measure it yourself.
You can't measure LC with a bathroom scale to weigh people. You have to focus the pressure on the LC only. You are measuring something different.
The scale to use is this.
No need to disassemble LC, just remove the elastomers, LC has a hole, put the scale hook into the hole and pull at a 90 degree angle. It pulls 20Kg and if LC measures 20% then LC is 100Kg. If LC measures 35% then LC is 60Kg.
But it is a waste of time. The LC specification is part of the marketing. Many people buy Thrustmaster because it "has 100Kg LC". Many buy V2 because it has 90Kg LC.
Fanatec would not mount 100Kg LC by advertising 60Kg LC. It would be stupid. Anyone who reads this receives false information.
You can't measure LC with a bathroom scale to weigh people. You have to focus the pressure on the LC only. You are measuring something different.
Of course I can!