Fanatec Direct Drive

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  • edited June 2017
    Thrustmaster - they are certainly on a lower level compared to Fanatec. I wouldn't say that they are just producing toys but it's not the major league...
  • edited June 2017


    Thrustmaster - they are certainly on a lower level compared to Fanatec. I wouldn't say that they are just producing toys but it's not the major league...
    that's why im wetting for fantec to make one for PC & PS4 what I'm saying is Sony doesn't sat a limit Price tag on wheelbase
  • edited June 2017

    that's is not true  In a recent conversation with GTPlanet regarding the wheel, Kazunori sheds light on what was on everyone’s minds after first seeing the images of the wheel emanating from The Copper Box Arena in London. Namely, is it or is it not a direct drive wheel?  Kazunori states this wheel will be ‘Direct Drive’, which means the wheel is directly attached to the steering shaft itself! Thrustmaster is doing away with the usual belts and gears and replacing them with a direct drive motor which will be employed by this new wheelbase.

    https://www.gtplanet.net/thrustmasters-new-gt-sport-wheel-to-include-direct-drive-motor/
    This https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/fanatec-direct-drive-powered-wheel-to-arrive-this-year.353597/#post-11712950

  • edited June 2017
    Are there any differences in steering FFB needed for a user with motion simulation and a user without? Having motion probably requires less FFB simulation sent to the steering as so many of the feedback can be felt in motion. So basically I have motion and would like to have an option for a steering system simulating only what a real driver feels.
  • I
    Basically great news. But Thomas you wrote: 'The first generation will not be compatible to PS4.' Again Sony who is making this restrictions? So the PS4 community has to wait again. Please just tell me that there will be a PS4 DD wheel later in the future as well.
    Thomas already stated that Sony found the V2(.5) is too expensive. That's why we got a CSL E base in stead. So they need to be more convinced of a product to be sold to their standards.
    that's is not true  In a recent conversation with GTPlanet regarding the wheel, Kazunori sheds light on what was on everyone’s minds after first seeing the images of the wheel emanating from The Copper Box Arena in London. Namely, is it or is it not a direct drive wheel?  Kazunori states this wheel will be ‘Direct Drive’, which means the wheel is directly attached to the steering shaft itself! Thrustmaster is doing away with the usual belts and gears and replacing them with a direct drive motor which will be employed by this new wheelbase.

    https://www.gtplanet.net/thrustmasters-new-gt-sport-wheel-to-include-direct-drive-motor/
    Yes it IS true. Ploug through the PS4 compatibility topic on this blog and you'll find Thomas' comment somewhere.
  • I am relatively new to sim racing.  By way of background, I started with an xBox and after having plowed through a couple of thrustmaster units and navigating their warranty department, it became clear that I needed a different solution to my wheelbase needs.  I asked on forums for what was "bullet proof" as more frustrating to me than the relative cost of the unit is the cost of being "down" due to malfunctioning or broken wheel bases (not to mention dealing with shipping and prepping extensive warranty write-ups and posting videos about the problems....). At that time, I switched to PC and was considering migrating right from TM to a direct drive wheel, but they all seemed like engineering projects from the motors themselves to the multitude of wheel fixing options and relative costs of one-off wheels.  This was right about the time the rumors surfaced that Fanatec would be developing a DD wheel of their own that would be compatible with their varied and reasonably priced steering wheels.  I bought a V2 wheel base and a Formula and BMW wheel and have been very well pleased.  I do long for a little more torque (esp on the BMW wheel), but usually don't drive with all sliders (game and unit) turned up all the way. I will be happy to have my V2 wheelbase as a (likely-not-needed) back-up unit for the new DD unit when it's available. 

    Now, when it comes to how the wheel should work, I have read through the above comments and will look forward to reading the others as they are added.From my perspective -- non-engineer, new(er) to the hobby/sport, and maybe most importantly, with a limited amount of time to dedicate to tweaking gear -- I hope Fanatec does not overcomplicate this wheel.  In my opinion, it should be up to the designers of the various titles to provide the code and adjustability to to the DD wheelbase.  If I imagine a scenario where I have the current PCars FFB menu combined with a similar menu for the wheelbase itself, it will be way too time consuming to author proper profiles to make it just seem "right" (see Mr. Matter's comment above). I finally broke down and downloaded a PCars FFB profile that got me close to where I think it should be on my V2 wheel as the PCars default settings were not satisfactory to me.  I know a lot of sim racers deride AC, but in my opinion, their FFB seems "right".  Whatever code they are sending to the wheelbase it is translating it into immersive feedback.  To me, it's up to them though (Kunos and others) to code the right information to make my wheel behave as they intend.  Car set up is tough; and I think it should be.  Real race teams spend months trying to set the car's set-up dialed in correctly, and it shouldn't be any different in sim racing (Although I am not sure that game set-up changes necessarily correspond to what the real world value of such a change would be, but that's another topic altogether). I really would not want to see wheel tweaks being required to squeeze time out of a lap.

    I like Natalie's idea above about being able to set the LEDs to preference. 

    Fanatec already does a great job of providing for real time adjustments through the menu available on the steering wheel to adjust SEN, FFB, etc....maybe a couple of new parameters could be added here without overly complicating things.  

    I am sure this will come down to what can be sold and at what price it can be made.  I don't know what the industry data is on # units of specialty controllers sold in a year, but I imagine Sim Racing is a small subset of that and those that would purchase a $1,000+ wheel is and even smaller subset.  Fanatec's main selling point IMO is system compatibility. The fact that this base can easily be inserted into the existing universe of Fanatec products is exciting and for me would be the key selling point.  The good news is, it appears that is covered. 
  • Are there any differences in steering FFB needed for a user with motion simulation and a user without? Having motion probably requires less FFB simulation sent to the steering as so many of the feedback can be felt in motion. So basically I have motion and would like to have an option for a steering system simulating only what a real driver feels.
    This is down to personal preference, but I find myself running very similar settings either with or without motion. I actually find myself running higher force on my wheel, especially if I am running a rig with really strong motion forces. I find that a nice strong wheel is less likely to be accidentally moved during really intense motion forces, like when the rig is shaking you around and your hanging on to the rim. I love the feeling of tearing up a bumpy track in something like a Porsche tin-top, when the motion is throwing me around and I'm hanging on to the steering wheel while also trying to fight strong forces coming from the wheel it is just so much fun and so immersive. You would swear your are experienceing real g-force lol. So while motion does help me to feel some ques that are normally felt through the wheel, that doesn't mean that I rely on the wheels FFB any less, both in terms of controlling the car and immersion. This is just my personal opinion, other people find themselves running much less steering force when running motion.
  • I'm all in for simple solutions, but I feel the power unit should be kept seperate from the motor. That would be much easier to fit my rig. The size of my actual V2 base prevents me from moving my triple screen setup further down (like it should be).
    Great to hear that my two wheels will fit, but I have my thoughts about the QR in combination with the more powerful torque of the DD base.
    The connections on my Porsche 918 RSR are starting to show issues from time to time and I need to use the locking screw, which is not so good when switching to the Formula rim and back... 
    A coiled USB cable connection would put less strain on the system.

    While I'm at it: a DTM/GT3 style wheel with bigger dimension than the Formula would be great too... ;-)
  • edited June 2017

    Agree with many of the suggestions so far. Here are a couple of additional requests for now until I think of any not mentioned. 


    Mounting: What are the mounting options ? Based on having various models they should all be compatible to current Race seats and stands?

    Phone dock would be great for using the many UDP Apps out now.


    Tuning Menu: Allow features that enable preset modes to be saved. Eg; If you have friends over you can save a “Guest Preset”  also if driving games that range from Arcade to Sim it would be good to have those modes set as well. All this aside from the regular tuning options.


    Inputs: Is it possible to have a Headphone input? 


    Kill switch to prevent damaging the wheel when some games cause rapid oscillating.


    Power supply should definitely external.


    Software:  Please allow both Mac and PC Software updating. Also enable control of presets as above. Maybe even a mobile app to do so.


    As Natalie said Allow the ability to control what the LED shows and how.


  • Personally I think anything Playstation related (for now) should stay on the PlayStation compatibility blog. As we now know that PS4 will not work with the forthcoming gen 1 DD wheels. And try to keep this blog what it is intended for, just my two pence :)
  • This sounds awesome. Hope my next level wheel stand is up to this. Hopefully with a more standardized setup, more casual users can get by with basic settings. I race a few hours over a weekend and enjoy racing over tweaking ffb settings, pcars as an example, this seems a substantial problem with existing DD wheels imo. Bringing along our current rims is a major plus, thanks.
  • I think that there should be a basic tune for the entry level DD. Each step up could offer more in tuning functions and variables within those functions. I also think that at that time Fanatec will have a thread for DD users to share info. That'd be very handy.
  • edited June 2017
    Im not a user of a DD steering wheel. I did consider buying it at one point, but after having a CSL Elite in hands, i put away the DD tought for some time, but now with this post....Oh boy, my eyes light up again hehe.

    In the tuning part, im gonna highlight a couple that were already mentioned, as that will give a bigger picture of what everyone wants:

    Possible addons like displays, be it 4" screens or digital type, with or without revlights ( i think you get the picture)

    or

    USB Data Output on the base so its possible to connect aftermarket displays (if you dont offer the above option).

    Ability to download community steering wheels setups and upload them to the steering wheel...so we can change between them in the steering wheel menu on the fly (less hassle to go to windows etc) - this is something that would eventually be usable by the other bases.

    Fine tune the FFB for things like bumps and kerbs as i feel sometimes these are exagerated.

    OFC maintaining most of the original settings as they are very good.

    Cant go much deeper as i dont know how a DD haddles neither have tried any of it.
    Hopefully i can get into the beta for this.

    Question: I was envolved in the CSL Elite beta test. Do i need to submit the beta tester form again?
  • I also own an OSW system with SimuCube and Small Mige. 

    I think most important thing is to make sure a very detailed, yet simple interface. 
    And a good education video that explane what does what. 

    Making people understand the inner working principles (with an everyday language) of a direct drive motor will have a positive effect. 

    But as my main suggestion, I think a configuration file system would be a good idea. 
    So that people could share their settings with a file. 
    You can also get support from top Sim drivers like members of Team Redline to share their configuration files for each sim.
    These could be downloadable from Fanatec web page.  
    This would be also good answer for the people who thinks like "Maybe I am faster but I just can't set my hardware right" 
    Or "I can never use such an advanced device, I would not know how to set it correctly"

    I totaly agree with many comments above regarding all adjustments should be realtime. 
    And Voice command sounds good but unfortunately it could be an issue when the language is not native. 
    Yet again we don't have much choise when it comes to VR. 

    I use my OSW system for over a year now and I think DD is the only way to go. 
    So I hope both pricing and user interface will be accesible for as much people as possible. 





     
  • Question... We all Hear Talk that DD is Better but we Never Hear it Explauned why its better other than ---> The FFB is Direct from the FFB motor or How Much more Powerful DD wheels are....Thomas can you give a Break Down on the whats and why DD is Better so all can understand---> I think a Good Break down of what Makes DD better would be Good info for many tthat are on the fence about the DD experience.
  • Question... We all Hear Talk that DD is Better but we Never Hear it Explauned why its better other than ---> The FFB is Direct from the FFB motor or How Much more Powerful DD wheels are....Thomas can you give a Break Down on the whats and why DD is Better so all can understand---> I think a Good Break down of what Makes DD better would be Good info for many tthat are on the fence about the DD experience.
    I agree. Some of the best sim racers don't use DD.
  • edited June 2017
    Question... We all Hear Talk that DD is Better but we Never Hear it Explauned why its better other than ---> The FFB is Direct from the FFB motor or How Much more Powerful DD wheels are....Thomas can you give a Break Down on the whats and why DD is Better so all can understand---> I think a Good Break down of what Makes DD better would be Good info for many tthat are on the fence about the DD experience.
    I agree. Some of the best sim racers don't use DD.
    Some of the best sim racers use no force feedback at all!

    Having arrived at a Bondnar SS2 53 servo from a CSW V2 there is a distinct difference between non-DD and DD. It's probably been mentioned so often but one of the major differences is that DD wheels offer immediacy in their FFB while also eradicating any loss of FFB. This is something experienced with belt-driven wheels, as the belt acts as an intermediary between FFB and delivery. while you'd expect a DD wheel to offer superior FFB at higher values, due to the vast torque at hand it also offers supreme fidelity at lower forces, tho the point that you'll notice a change in the road texture at any given track!

    Hopefully the fact that a mass-producing company such as Fanatec is divulging into the DD stratosphere will persuade developers to cater their physics more in the direction of DD wheels, so we can truly take advantage of these devices. For me iRacing's current FFB doesn't get the best out of my Bondnar, while in Automobilista the subtlety on offer when driving any of the open wheelers is amazing. Same can be said for rFactor2, the Formula Renault 3.5 is A LOT of work. 

    It's also important to remember that a DD wheel won't make you any faster, as previously mentioned a lot of aliens use extremely minimal FFB, to the point that some will use none at all. For me, my reasoning to go DD was for further immersion, the detail that a DD wheel can give, be it the curbs, road texture, the flat spotting of a tyre is utterly amazing. 


  • The current DD wheels are superior mostly because of its torque and speed. This actually makes a really big difference on how easy you can catch an oversteering car for example.

    The subtle forces will be improved as well but up to a point where it is actually no longer realistic as you have some slack or loss in the steering system of a real car as well.

    If you use a belt drive like on the CSW V2.5 you are already pretty close to DD but with a more powerful motor and a single drive V-belt system I am sure that you could reach better results than on a bad DD system with a notchy motor. 

    DD is great but it has to be done properly and it is not true that a belt system is by default inferior.

     
  • The current DD wheels are superior mostly because of its torque and speed. This actually makes a really big difference on how easy you can catch an oversteering car for example.

    The subtle forces will be improved as well but up to a point where it is actually no longer realistic as you have some slack or loss in the steering system of a real car as well.

    If you use a belt drive like on the CSW V2.5 you are already pretty close to DD but with a more powerful motor and a single drive V-belt system I am sure that you could reach better results than on a bad DD system with a notchy motor. 

    DD is great but it has to be done properly and it is not true that a belt system is by default inferior.

     
    I agree. I think some DD are less like real steering than the CSWv2 and 2.5.
  • After reading the above suggestions, I think most of my wants and wishes have been covered, very well, by the way. There are some very informed people here who have great ideas and suggestions.
    The one thing that stuck in my mind was the ability to change settings, on the fly, in game, while driving.  This could be done on the steering wheel itself or by mapping to knobs on a button box.  It was make those of us who race in VR very happy!!!!!
  • That is such great news!

    I have to update my Xmas list now... :-)
  • Thrustmaster put out a teaser on their Facebook today . Looks like the rumored wheel. This could get interesting. I fully expect Thomas to have the better kit, but competition is a good thing.


  • If you use a belt drive like on the CSW V2.5 you are already pretty close to DD but with a more powerful motor and a single drive V-belt system I am sure that you could reach better results than on a bad DD system with a notchy motor. 



     
    But what will be the price of the wheel with a more powerful motor and a single drive V-belt system compared to DD system with a notchy motor,and which one will be more reliable over time?


  • If you use a belt drive like on the CSW V2.5 you are already pretty close to DD but with a more powerful motor and a single drive V-belt system I am sure that you could reach better results than on a bad DD system with a notchy motor. 



     
    But what will be the price of the wheel with a more powerful motor and a single drive V-belt system compared to DD system with a notchy motor,and which one will be more reliable over time?
    Reliablility wouldn't really matter. A notchy motor wouldn't be worth having in the 1st place.

  • does the dd base will have new mounting points on the rig, or the same like before  ?  

    maybe the dd needs a higher stability.

     



  • The current DD wheels are superior mostly because of its torque and speed. This actually makes a really big difference on how easy you can catch an oversteering car for example.

    The subtle forces will be improved as well but up to a point where it is actually no longer realistic as you have some slack or loss in the steering system of a real car as well.

    If you use a belt drive like on the CSW V2.5 you are already pretty close to DD but with a more powerful motor and a single drive V-belt system I am sure that you could reach better results than on a bad DD system with a notchy motor. 

    DD is great but it has to be done properly and it is not true that a belt system is by default inferior.

     

    Talking about the CSWv2.5... I am still on the v2 but I've been pushing it to its limits in order to achieve just that. In Project CARS 2 I actually make sure there is no clipping even under high downforce and braking circumstances (highest load on the front wheels) and I have now set the CSWv2 to a FOR of 150%.
    What this allows me to do is allow the signal from the game to utilize more dynamic range as well as use the full dynamic range of the motor in the CSWv2. While the CSWv2 can't utilize a constant force at 150% with a full (near) clipping signal, it's peak torque is much higher. So it's enough for those short high torque peaks from impacts or maybe even the initial peak of when the brakes grab.

    Also as a side note, Thomas. That CSWv2 base is still the Beta base that you guys send me, still going strong after much abuse and testing. A really reliable piece of equipment. :)
  • The current DD wheels are superior mostly because of its torque and speed. This actually makes a really big difference on how easy you can catch an oversteering car for example.

    The subtle forces will be improved as well but up to a point where it is actually no longer realistic as you have some slack or loss in the steering system of a real car as well.

    If you use a belt drive like on the CSW V2.5 you are already pretty close to DD but with a more powerful motor and a single drive V-belt system I am sure that you could reach better results than on a bad DD system with a notchy motor. 

    DD is great but it has to be done properly and it is not true that a belt system is by default inferior.

     

    Talking about the CSWv2.5... I am still on the v2 but I've been pushing it to its limits in order to achieve just that. In Project CARS 2 I actually make sure there is no clipping even under high downforce and braking circumstances (highest load on the front wheels) and I have now set the CSWv2 to a FOR of 150%.
    What this allows me to do is allow the signal from the game to utilize more dynamic range as well as use the full dynamic range of the motor in the CSWv2. While the CSWv2 can't utilize a constant force at 150% with a full (near) clipping signal, it's peak torque is much higher. So it's enough for those short high torque peaks from impacts or maybe even the initial peak of when the brakes grab.

    Also as a side note, Thomas. That CSWv2 base is still the Beta base that you guys send me, still going strong after much abuse and testing. A really reliable piece of equipment. :)
    Still a beta base going strong! That speaks to Fanatec reliability
  • Oooh, oooh, oooh, over here! Pick me! I wanna try it. Damn it Fanatec, you makin it hard for me to deal with the excitement over here. I can only hope you let me beta test this savage beast. But good job Fanatec. Keep it up.
  • Thomas some questions from my side

    "Steering Wheels
    All the current ClubSport steering wheels will be compatible. We developed a new QR system on the base to handle the extra power but it will stay a quick release.2

    This is not clear, you develop a new QR to handle bigger torque, but if the old clubsport rims (918, bmw, Forumla and HUb) will be compatible why bother to make new QR system? Or also the rims above will receive a torque reduction when installed, as well as CSL CSL Elite Wheels those are basically a P1 wheel? if yes how much the torque will be reduced?

    There will be no cable from the wheel to the base or to USB. The wheel will be able to rotate unlimited without the risk to snap off a cable or to disturb you while driving.

    THIS IS THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO ON A DD BASE :-)


  • edited June 2017
    Actually the better thing would be to make the buttons on the wheel transmit via wireless transmission to the electronics in the base. That way you only need to sync up the connection like with the Xbox controller.

    As for powering the buttons and leds I think a couple of AA or AAA batteries should do. That way you can always have some Eneloops at the ready.
    Either that or when you have rumble motors in the wheel than it might be better to go for a USB rechargable Lithium-Ion solution as they often have a bit more energy in them.
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