Here is something for everyone to think about for a moment that reminds me of a situation I was in about 10 years ago with a niche market custom audio company that went bankrupt.
This audio company was continuously using pre-orders for cash injections to pay for current liabilities and to pay manufacturers to fulfill prior orders because they were liquidity constrained on the verge of bankruptcy. This was going on for a couple years. They had warranty defect issues and things that just didn't make sense in regards to multiple delays etc. They were also running these fraudulent charity proceed auctions and using those proceeds to cash up. The objective was to eventually pull themselves out of the liquidity issue at some point as they struggled to hang on. This all came out in court and owner ended up going to jail for fraud, etc. but in the meantime a whole ton of people got hung out to dry on their orders.
I'm keeping my pre-order because I have thought this through for myself and am willing to lose $1k in exchange for the rim voucher if it materializes. I really debated whether I should post this or not because it will likely stir up some doodoo and I would be upset at the parallel being drawn if I was FANATEC.
Ultimately the reason I decided to post is consumers forget there truly is risk when pre-ordering and we should all at least be aware of the risk when the decision is made.
Hopefully everything is well at Fanatec and DD becomes and incredible success that we all get to enjoy. Someone from Fanatec can contact me if they want me to remove this post.
I just checked the financial results of Endor AG (the company that operates under the FANATEC name)
To me, that looks like a healthy company. No reason to get the pitchforks and scream panic. Fanatec are a leader in a growing market.
Profitability and Cash Flow are two different things...
But yeah, in general you are right: Endor looks healthy, much healthier than a couple of years ago.
I think the reason for the possibility of pre-ordering is stopping simucube from "stealing" more and more potential customers, especially as a DD has a very very long life-cycle and a lost customer might be lost "forever"
Hmmmm Maybe I will Change My DD2 order to the PS4 DD wheel since they will all be available at the same time.
would one be able to use it with xbox if one puts the right wheel on it ?
Yup(Yes)!!! So it only Makes sense to get the wheel that will work with all 3 systems especially if there is No extra wait involved... Since I ordered the DD2 that should cover the extra $$$ that the PS4 DD wheel will have added to it because of licensing fees.
Am I the only one who is pretty sad he didn't pre-order before this news? I was waiting for the news before pre-ordering. I think it is a good sign they postpone deliveries to get the quality up to their standards. Now I wish I had pre-ordered so I could get the F1 steering wheel. Guess I'll wait for a discount now.
Here is something for everyone to think about for a moment that reminds me of a situation I was in about 10 years ago with a niche market custom audio company that went bankrupt.
This audio company was continuously using pre-orders for cash injections to pay for current liabilities and to pay manufacturers to fulfill prior orders because they were liquidity constrained on the verge of bankruptcy. This was going on for a couple years. They had warranty defect issues and things that just didn't make sense in regards to multiple delays etc. They were also running these fraudulent charity proceed auctions and using those proceeds to cash up. The objective was to eventually pull themselves out of the liquidity issue at some point as they struggled to hang on. This all came out in court and owner ended up going to jail for fraud, etc. but in the meantime a whole ton of people got hung out to dry on their orders.
I'm keeping my pre-order because I have thought this through for myself and am willing to lose $1k in exchange for the rim voucher if it materializes. I really debated whether I should post this or not because it will likely stir up some doodoo and I would be upset at the parallel being drawn if I was FANATEC.
Ultimately the reason I decided to post is consumers forget there truly is risk when pre-ordering and we should all at least be aware of the risk when the decision is made.
Hopefully everything is well at Fanatec and DD becomes and incredible success that we all get to enjoy. Someone from Fanatec can contact me if they want me to remove this post.
I just checked the financial results of Endor AG (the company that operates under the FANATEC name)
To me, that looks like a healthy company. No reason to get the pitchforks and scream panic. Fanatec are a leader in a growing market.
Profitability and Cash Flow are two different things...
But yeah, in general you are right: Endor looks healthy, much healthier than a couple of years ago.
I think the reason for the possibility of pre-ordering is stopping simucube from "stealing" more and more potential customers, especially as a DD has a very very long life-cycle and a lost customer might be lost "forever"
Yes, opening products for pre-ordering always follows that goal, doesn't it. Put attention on your upcoming product so people don't buy anything else.
However I trust that they were confident of being able to make their original estimate, and that this was a hiccup they didn't anticipate.
Just installed GT Sport update 1.31 and guess what, the display is still
dark. No gear and speed indicator. Is that Polyphony Digital's
understanding of supoorting a fully licensed PS4 wheel?
Thomas could you please be so kind and address this to PD again? Many thanks!
BTW I can't wait to place my pre-order for the Podium Racing Wheel - officially licensed for PS4. I will place my order independently of the release date. So take your time.
Delay is not a big surprise IMO. But there's another thing: every time people (and personally I'm) was asked about Podium Racing Wheel preorders You answered about soon preorders start and the same release terms in December, but You kept silence and waited until today. Now You "offer a special gift as a gesture of appreciation" to all preordered DD1/DD2 but no apologies to PS4 users, who waited as well as DD1/DD2 customers. I find it's really unfair to PS4 users and feel dumped because I decided to purchase PRW from the begining, even before DD1/DD2 preorders were opened (at september). Now I must decide what to do with (my not even unpacked) setup: to wait for 5 months more without any racing or to order entry level solution that I don't want :-?
Now what we have:
PC DD1 will get DD2 + F1 2019 for 999,95€ (and some auction discounts of 10€)
PS4 PRW will get DD2 + F1 2019 for ???
My personal result: I've lost profit on Bank Deposit because I withdrawn means from account and converted them to euro currency for fast PRW pre-order that You promissed "soon". Futhermore I will must pay 30% over the price for customes clearence since next year (for any orders over 500€). It's not an anger but a frustration and indignation when You ignor PS4 users.. :-S And that is my first expirience with Fanatec after 10 years of Logitech and Thrustmaster and such kinf of confusion from the begining
Yesterday
was a bad day for most of us, but I feel especially bad for Thomas by all the illusions
he has in the Podium Series. Anyway, I think they made the right decision, and
the compensation for the delay is very generous. I hope that the redesign and possible
cancelations don’t hurt your financials, because we need an innovative company
as Fanatec with such good products.
The only disgusting
thing is the last minute announce, because if we had known it a little earlier we could change our plans. Some would not sell his bases, or in my case, I would
have bought a CSL Elite wheelbase during the Black Friday Offers, if I know that I have to wait 6 aditional months. Make your numbers, but probably if you extend the BF CLS Elite deal to the DD preorders (100€ coupon code for DD preorders), many of us will bought it and wait patiently to the DD launch.
Anyway ,
take your time to redesign the electronics to have the product we all desire.
Encouragement to all the Fantec team and keep going doing your best.
Am I the only one who is pretty sad he didn't pre-order before this news? I was waiting for the news before pre-ordering. I think it is a good sign they postpone deliveries to get the quality up to their standards. Now I wish I had pre-ordered so I could get the F1 steering wheel. Guess I'll wait for a discount now.
Meanwhile, I'm stuck in a crappy situation where I preordered before they released this news, but after the cutoff for the free wheel. I already preordered the LE F1 wheel, but it'd be nice to use the credit toward the future podium GT wheel they've showed off. I'm fairly upset. I don't really want to cancel my preorders, but it's gonna suck to have my money tied up that long for no reason. I wish there was something I could do.
Thomas first my sympathy for the current circumstances.
Question: how does the problem affect the PS4 Podium Base? Do we have to wait PS4 users with the delivery until april or may? Myself and some of my acquaintances have already sold our PS4 wheelbases and hoped to invest our money in the new PS4 Podium base.
Greetings from Hamburg
Thomas/ Dominic... Question Since the PS4 DD wheel seems it will Now be launching with the DD2 wheel, If I wanted to change My Pre Order from a DD2 wheel base to the PS4 DD wheel, will I lose My Pre Order delay compensation F1 wheel??? I Pre Ordered the DD2 on Day 1.
Can't help but feel a little bad for the PS4 owners who have been waiting months for news on the PS4 Podium wheel. Now these racers who have been waiting for the pre-order just to go live will probably see the exact same delay, but not be compensated for waiting. Personally, I have not been planning to purchase a PS4 podium, but I can see how others might feel slighted by watching others get free stuff despite experiencing the exact same setbacks.
Judging by the silhouette picture on the website, it appears that the wheel rim to be paired with the PS4 podium base is going to be the ClubSport F1 2018 rim, which is what the DD1/DD2 pre-orderers are going to be compensated with (it's either that rim or the esports rim, I suppose). The difference is PS4 podium buyers are going to have to pay the cost of the wheel base + rim (possibly a little bit of bundle savings but not much), as opposed to DD1/DD2 buyers who will just pay the cost of the base but get a free rim, even though ultimately all 3 models are having similar delays.
Therefore, a compromise suggestion - when the PS4 podium wheels are up for pre-order, maybe make the pre-order price the same as the DD1 base price? That way, the PS4 buyers are essentially getting their wheel rim for free while it is still in its pre-order phase, and the buyers are still experiencing delays. You can even make it for only [X] number of units or [X] number of days; in my opinion this would also be a nice gesture of goodwill towards prospective PS4 buyers who will wait through the same delays as DD1/DD2.
Of course, Fanatec is a business and doesn't owe anybody anything, so they will do what they deem appropriate/cost effective/etc. As an owner of Fanatec gear I felt obligated to put in my two cents...even if its only worth half a penny
The "facts" don't add up. The ".07% failure rate" is far lower than any product they have sold and lower than what it will be next year in May.
I smell bankruptcy. Get your money back on pre-orders as fast as possible or risk losing it. The promise of a "free" F1 wheel is just to entice you not to get your money back until they are gone and its to late to get your money back. Don't buy into the lies.
I read my email yesterday from 'webshop' and was very disappointed that it was sent out without the explanation and apology I have found on here today. I even sent an email to 'webshop' regarding this fact at the time! (reply-all was a stoopid option as the email was sent from an unmonitored mailbox anyway)
However, since reading Thomas' post today, I understand his point of view and my view is that having a premium product with a known 7 units in every 1000 produced to fail off the production line is a great indicator that the problem could exist in all units but not be apparent immediately, so I am very pleased that he has taken this decision. I have had to return too many items that have failed from new to Fanatec over the past 4 years, they don't have the fastest turn around either but they did a good job of fixing all the failures for me in the end.
Having potentially all the pre-order bases fail, would damage the Fanatec name really badly, probably beyond recovery looking at their annual reported profit/revenue and this would be a shame considering they are the only vendor to have such unique offerings with interchangeability, build quality and compatability.
I see a few posts in this thread about bankruptcy and yes this is a risk we gambled on and all took on when pre-ordering, but the very nature of R&D is that it is ALL loss and usually comes out of previous profits, so on top of this as long as the pre-order profit value is much greater than the R&D loss, we are all fairly safe I would presume. I obviously don't have any figures to support this presumption, but it won't keep me up all night!
The Podium base is going to be unique and I am willing to wait for a solid tested product... full stop!
The gifted wheel/voucher is a CSAT gesture and a welcome one at that to take away the disappointment factor and help keep their loyal customers onboard. I will remain a supporter of Fanatec and really do wish them well and hope that they can swap out a few capacitors and transistors or what ever is required to fix the problem or at worst rework the entire electronics behind it if needed.
A thought for everyone at Fanatec and all of their Podium customers to finish on... The direct drive motor they have specially developed is really really really powerful. It is the electronics Thomas speaks of in his post that controls the motor. If the wheel was realeased prematurely with this known fault and then the electronics failed and the powerful motor ended up being the cause of somebodies injury or worse, imagine how the Fanatec team would feel for a start and then imagine how this would affect the entire sim-racing scene, let alone the poor people that were affected directly. - Good call Thomas!
The "facts" don't add up. The ".07% failure rate" is far lower than any product they have sold and lower than what it will be next year in May.
I smell bankruptcy. Get your money back on pre-orders as fast as possible or risk losing it. The promise of a "free" F1 wheel is just to entice you not to get your money back until they are gone and its to late to get your money back. Don't buy into the lies.
My paypal account is saying I'm covered until May 2019.
Until there, I can enter in a dispute.
But, agree with you, 0.07% of failure is to low to justify losing too much money like they're doing new. Upgrading the motor, now a $350 wheel.. I don't believe they're loosing money, but they're loosing a lot of profit.
using the 0.07% against the 4000 pre-order represents only 2.8 bases. So, I believe it's much better than the Base V2.5.
Is this a reason for 6 months delay? I can't tell you, but reading/following this topic. I'm really sure they good let us now earlier.
Fanatec is a good company, Yes, at least is what I think about it, since it's the only brand where my stuff come from.
But the lack of communication, this huge delay, is something Is making me look for a different brand. We had the same delay on the Mclaren GT3(We receive the QR as gift).
And still would like to have an answer about this:
@Fanatec and @Thomas. Could you give discount to the customers to buy your cheaper Base? At least the BF discounts ?
Let's put this in simple terms. Waiting another 5 or so months for a flawless product to be released is no big deal and appreciated. Loaning a company $1500+ during the time it takes them to get their act together and being kept in the dark until the last minute is BS. Those of us that took the risk and went out on a limb to pre order deserve way better than that. At a Minimum those that pre-ordered should have been kept in the loop all along, this was handled in the worst possible manner and reflects extremely poorly on Fanatec.
Side note on the financial info posted earlier, If you look beyond the whole dollar amounts and do the math it works out to roughly an 8% bottom line. That is not an indication of a company that is on solid financial grounds to me but it certainly does not indicate an impending bankruptcy. It does make me question how they finance the development of the DD products, I bet the answer to that question is pre-orders and BS auction antics to raise capital.
One thing to think about too is what is to say the April delivery date will be kept? It is certainly possible there may.be a further delay after that as well if something new shoes up along the way then as well. It could be another 12 months until release. Who is willing to wait that much longer?
There's only one thing we can do in that case: Buy more wall-mounts for all the rims which they will give us as compensation! )
Can't help but feel a little bad for the PS4 owners who have been waiting months for news on the PS4 Podium wheel. Now these racers who have been waiting for the pre-order just to go live will probably see the exact same delay, but not be compensated for waiting.
That is axactly what I ment - thank you :-bd
I thought we are in the same boat, but such gestures splites a community =((
Nevertheless I still keep waiting for Podium RW pre-orders start.. :o3
Delay is not a big surprise IMO. But there's another thing: every time people (and personally I'm) was asked about Podium Racing Wheel preorders You answered about soon preorders start and the same release terms in December, but You kept silence and waited until today. Now You "offer a special gift as a gesture of appreciation" to all preordered DD1/DD2 but no apologies to PS4 users, who waited as well as DD1/DD2 customers. I find it's really unfair to PS4 users and feel dumped because I decided to purchase PRW from the begining, even before DD1/DD2 preorders were opened (at september)..
Fanatec is releasing their first Flag Ship DD wheel ...with that said, While i too am disappointed that the wheel is Delayed i feel it was for the Best... a 0.07% defect rate on 100 units maybe very small but when its 0.07% of 10,000 units that's alot of negative press on the Flag ship product and could hurt future sales Not to Mention all the $$$ that Fanatec would be wasting paying for Shipping and Return cost... These DD wheels are Not light weight so Shipping cost will be higher than any wheel they ship to date.
Yes I want the Wheel Now but what I want Most of All is a Dependable DD wheel that performs well, While the News of a delay was Not what i wanted , IMO a tad bit more time to wait is a small price to pay for a Better product.
I don't think Fanaec will be going under any time soon [-X Thats just a bunch of spoiled I want it Now Blah Blah Blah ~X(
Fanatec is releasing their first Flag Ship DD wheel ...with that said, While i too am disappointed that the wheel is Delayed i feel it was for the Best... a 0.07% defect rate on 100 units maybe very small but when its 0.07% of 10,000 units that's alot of negative press on the Flag ship product and could hurt future sales Not to Mention all the $$$ that Fanatec would be wasting paying for Shipping and Return cost... These DD wheels are Not light weight so Shipping cost will be higher than any wheel they ship to date.
Yes I want the Wheel Now but what I want Most of All is a Dependable DD wheel that performs well, While the News of a delay was Not what i wanted , IMO a tad bit more time to wait is a small price to pay for a Better product.
I don't think Fanaec will be going under any time soon [-X Thats just a bunch of spoiled I want it Now Blah Blah Blah ~X(
.7 failure rate is well within standard practice to go to market with, hell most companys expect .5% loss in either shipping errors and theft. Nvidia reports with there GTX 2080 Ti line of an issue rate of .9% which is acceptable.
I'm with some of the other guys, something major came up ether with the product or with the business I hope its not that latter.
I don’t think we know enough about the nature of the failures to second guess Thomas’ decision. If he feels it is serious enough he would prefer to give us free rims rather than release as is that’s good enough for me. Clearly this costs more than a fraction of a percent loss, so I will trust Thomas’ judgement that the delay is warranted.
I still think it would be nice if we could get something like the Black Friday offer extended to people who are now in need of wheel bases for 5 months.
Fanatec is releasing their first Flag Ship DD wheel ...with that said, While i too am disappointed that the wheel is Delayed i feel it was for the Best... a 0.07% defect rate on 100 units maybe very small but when its 0.07% of 10,000 units that's alot of negative press on the Flag ship product and could hurt future sales Not to Mention all the $$$ that Fanatec would be wasting paying for Shipping and Return cost... These DD wheels are Not light weight so Shipping cost will be higher than any wheel they ship to date.
Yes I want the Wheel Now but what I want Most of All is a Dependable DD wheel that performs well, While the News of a delay was Not what i wanted , IMO a tad bit more time to wait is a small price to pay for a Better product.
I don't think Fanaec will be going under any time soon [-X Thats just a bunch of spoiled I want it Now Blah Blah Blah ~X(
.7 failure rate is well within standard practice to go to market with, hell most companys expect .5% loss in either shipping errors and theft. Nvidia reports with there GTX 2080 Ti line of an issue rate of .9% which is acceptable.
I'm with some of the other guys, something major came up ether with the product or with the business I hope its not that latter.
IJS... I bet you wouldn't be so accepting of 0.07% if you were the Lucky 1 that ended up with 1 of those wheels that would have the Defect @-)
Comments
However I trust that they were confident of being able to make their original estimate, and that this was a hiccup they didn't anticipate.
They did a couple of millions € /$ pure profit with this pre-ordering. Approximately 3000 preorders for a dd1 / dd2 = 4 million euros
2018 will be a big year for fanatec. but not sure if healthy...
@fanatec
for me the announcment of an 5month delay, 3 days befor shippigng-date it is unacceptable. no way! thats not fair behaviour and you know it.
can´t wait that long, so sadly I have to go to your competitor.
Yesterday was a bad day for most of us, but I feel especially bad for Thomas by all the illusions he has in the Podium Series. Anyway, I think they made the right decision, and the compensation for the delay is very generous. I hope that the redesign and possible cancelations don’t hurt your financials, because we need an innovative company as Fanatec with such good products.
The only disgusting thing is the last minute announce, because if we had known it a little earlier we could change our plans. Some would not sell his bases, or in my case, I would have bought a CSL Elite wheelbase during the Black Friday Offers, if I know that I have to wait 6 aditional months. Make your numbers, but probably if you extend the BF CLS Elite deal to the DD preorders (100€ coupon code for DD preorders), many of us will bought it and wait patiently to the DD launch.
Anyway , take your time to redesign the electronics to have the product we all desire.
Encouragement to all the Fantec team and keep going doing your best.
I smell bankruptcy. Get your money back on pre-orders as fast as possible or risk losing it. The promise of a "free" F1 wheel is just to entice you not to get your money back until they are gone and its to late to get your money back. Don't buy into the lies.
I read my email yesterday from 'webshop' and was very disappointed that it was sent out without the explanation and apology I have found on here today. I even sent an email to 'webshop' regarding this fact at the time! (reply-all was a stoopid option as the email was sent from an unmonitored mailbox anyway)
However, since reading Thomas' post today, I understand his point of view and my view is that having a premium product with a known 7 units in every 1000 produced to fail off the production line is a great indicator that the problem could exist in all units but not be apparent immediately, so I am very pleased that he has taken this decision. I have had to return too many items that have failed from new to Fanatec over the past 4 years, they don't have the fastest turn around either but they did a good job of fixing all the failures for me in the end.
Having potentially all the pre-order bases fail, would damage the Fanatec name really badly, probably beyond recovery looking at their annual reported profit/revenue and this would be a shame considering they are the only vendor to have such unique offerings with interchangeability, build quality and compatability.
I see a few posts in this thread about bankruptcy and yes this is a risk we gambled on and all took on when pre-ordering, but the very nature of R&D is that it is ALL loss and usually comes out of previous profits, so on top of this as long as the pre-order profit value is much greater than the R&D loss, we are all fairly safe I would presume. I obviously don't have any figures to support this presumption, but it won't keep me up all night!
The Podium base is going to be unique and I am willing to wait for a solid tested product... full stop!
The gifted wheel/voucher is a CSAT gesture and a welcome one at that to take away the disappointment factor and help keep their loyal customers onboard. I will remain a supporter of Fanatec and really do wish them well and hope that they can swap out a few capacitors and transistors or what ever is required to fix the problem or at worst rework the entire electronics behind it if needed.
A thought for everyone at Fanatec and all of their Podium customers to finish on... The direct drive motor they have specially developed is really really really powerful. It is the electronics Thomas speaks of in his post that controls the motor. If the wheel was realeased prematurely with this known fault and then the electronics failed and the powerful motor ended up being the cause of somebodies injury or worse, imagine how the Fanatec team would feel for a start and then imagine how this would affect the entire sim-racing scene, let alone the poor people that were affected directly. - Good call Thomas!
Upgrading the motor, now a $350 wheel.. I don't believe they're loosing money, but they're loosing a lot of profit.
I'm with some of the other guys, something major came up ether with the product or with the business I hope its not that latter.